The Shortlist Episode 91: The Short(er) List: We'll Do it Live!

No notes. No outline. No edits. No regrets. (Okay, maybe a few regrets.)

In this episode of The Short(er) List, Becky and Kyle are going live. After deciding on the episode topic approximately four minutes before hitting record, they just ... went for it. The result? An unfiltered, unscripted, and unrehearsed conversation about one of AEC marketing's most quietly complicated relationships: the interplay between graphic designers and content writers.

Listen to find out if they pull it off. No safety net and nowhere to hide—just raw, organic, and all-natural AEC marketing talk without the artificial colors, preservatives, or added sugar. Sneezes included.

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to The Shorter List. Hi, I am Becky Ellison with The Shorter List Podcast, and I am going rogue.

Apparently, some things are just too silly, weird or extra to fit into our regular Short List episodes, so we are bringing those conversations, rants and other fun stuff that was too spicy for TV direct to you in bite-sized little podcast treats

hosted by me and featuring all of your favorite Middle of Sixers. I am here with Kyle Davis, the producer of The Short List. He has also gone rogue. Hey Kyle, how's it going?

Hello, feeling very rogue.

So let's get into it today.

We are doing something very exciting, Shorter List listeners. That's right, we are doing an unedited live episode. We are not going to make any cuts to this episode, even if I sneeze right into the microphone.

We are gonna play this out exactly as we record it. This is high-energy, adrenaline rush, tightrope walking podcasting, everybody, and we're very excited.

I was really excited about this idea when we pitched it to each other, and now I am feeling like I might be regretting it. I've made a huge mistake.

I think that's just part of the process. I feel that every time we record an episode. Will you edit it out if I swear?

Because I cannot make compromises.

Yeah, let's just leave that in our back pocket that profanity doesn't seem like. It seems like the one carve out. But we won't do it.

Yeah, okay.

So the only things that it will be if when I for sure swear without meaning to. I'm sorry. I don't mean to swear at you listeners.

I'm never swearing at you. Okay.

With you.

So I'm swearing with you. You know, they say that people who swear often tend to be more honest. So take that to heart.

Today we are going to be talking about working together doing various different disciplines on a project that is multi-faceted.

This is something that happens a lot in our work, where we have different people with different skill sets coming together, like superheroes, and everybody does their different special talents.

And how do we work together concurrently on a multi-faceted project? And we are going to talk about that with zero notes listeners and zero edits.

Just pure raw, unfiltered expertise.

Yeah, because we do do this all the time, honestly.

Just mainlining marketing.

That's what we do. Just shoot it right into your eyeballs. Don't.

That's terrible. Okay. Why did we agree to do this?

Okay. Here we go. That's tomorrow.

And that is it for us today.

And we will leave you with a... I can't do it. We'll do it live.

Okay.

Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live.

So Kyle and I have been working together at Middle Six for something like three, four years now, maybe.

Yeah, let's say that.

And we have different talents. I'm a graphic designer and copywriter.

Generally, I do a lot of proposal stuff, but it's usually with regard to design and layout and short form copywriting, like cute, fun little headers and call outs and things like that. And Kyle is sort of the opposite of that.

How would you describe what you do, Kyle?

Yeah, I would say we intersect definitely on that aspect of it.

I'm probably more on the writing side in the mission, vision, values, brand, promise, and then if we're working on a website, I'm probably writing almost all of the website content.

So I'm writing your home page and I'm writing your about us page and all the little taglines and all the supporting paragraphs and thinking through the structure of all that.

And I guess when we think about this topic, how the two of us intersect, I was thinking of going through a website discovery process, going through branding exercises with clients, learning about their mission, vision, values, their messaging, their

storytelling, but then taking that into a website project, but also seeing you on a parallel but similar lane, taking that information to then develop, say, a proposal template or PowerPoints, or what else is it? You just did an A3.

So like, oftentimes, we're kind of giving clients like the full meal deal where it's like, we're gonna redo your proposal, we're gonna redo your website, we're gonna redo your messaging, your graphics, your branding, we're gonna look at your colors.

Like, it's the whole thing, so.

Oh, yeah. Plus fries and a drink and a toy. It's a happy meal of...

I just love that metaphor. Sorry, I got excited.

No, keep going. I just like it when you talk and not me, because then I don't have to fret.

You have to talk. This is part of it, man.

It's live.

We're doing this. There's no going back. Yeah, no, I...

This happens all the time. We worked on several large projects where we're doing everything from branding and websites, proposal templates, this, that, the other thing.

We're working on one of those right now, actually, for a large architect firm in various cities, and we're doing all sorts of things. We started out with a proposal template. So I started on that, which means I generally kicked off design for them.

And then that is evolving into... Concurrently, we've got another designer working on the actual website design in terms of visual layout and all that sort of thing. And then Kyle is working on how do we put the website together?

What are we gonna write? What's the messaging? And we have to do that all in tandem so that we match, because we want everything to be consistent.

So that, a lot of times, is handing things back and forth. It's saying, what colors are we using? How are we saying this?

What's the messaging between this thing and that thing? Did we say, did we have a great line inside of the proposal template front cover? Should we repeat that on the website?

That sort of thing. Those are things we have to think about. And it's challenging sometimes, but also it can make it easier in a way, because then you're not having to come up with stuff on your own, obviously.

That would be weird.

Yeah, I have no issue whatsoever, and I actually almost prefer sort of taking guidance from other professionals on my team who are doing work.

I actually think that in this instance, seeing your work in a proposal template, and then trying to understand the... I mean, I guess the value in it is I get to speak to you, understand your process.

We get to meet with the client and hear their feedback.

And while they are offering feedback on what is ostensibly a proposal template, that doesn't mean that there is not a ton of overlap when we are talking about web design or how they like their brand to be conveyed or whether they like certain types

of messaging or other types of messaging. I think even after completing a website discovery process, just absolutely barely getting the words out, because I'm so self-conscious about this liveness.

Where's this going, Kyle? How are you going to end that sentence?

It's still super valuable to be able to get into that creative process with a client, even if it's not connected to your actual deliverable that you personally will be working on, because then I can take everything that I heard in the proposal

template meetings and I'm already ahead of the game when it comes time to start crafting messaging, crafting design, thinking about how it translates into a website project. So it's an interconnected ecosystem, if you will.

For sure.

Yeah, I think in some ways it's better even, because I'm a designer, but I don't necessarily know exactly what we can and can't build in the website development application that you're using. I don't know coding.

I don't know, is this shooting for the moon? Is this impossible? I'm not sure, but then I can design the heck out of something in InDesign or Illustrator or whatever.

And then Kyle can look at that and say, yeah, we can make that happen on the website. So I feel like I'm getting to contribute to the website design a little bit by doing things the way that I know how to do them.

So that's a good way to get multiple brains on board on the project who don't necessarily have the same skill sets if you kind of do your own thing. And then the other person looks at that and says, oh yeah, let's see how that drives together.

It actually speeds up, I think, efficiency. Efficiency can be sped up.

Yeah, that's a great point.

You're able to design in a way with out for knowledge or even inhibition because whereas a web designer might say, oh, I'm not even going to attempt that design flourish or I'm not going to put that element in there because that won't translate to

HTML or whatever. But you can kind of break it open and say, like, you know, explore the realm of the possible.

And then, you know, I would say, even if you can't translate something one to one, there's still value and there's still creativity in trying to learn how to translate it into your application.

So just because you do something in a proposal template that can't be perfectly replicated on a web design, that doesn't mean kind of threading that needle won't produce something that's both cohesive and interesting and unique to the website itself

Totally.

Yeah, I mean, that it happens all the time when I've worked on a few like email marketing campaigns with Grace, who does our social media and stuff like that.

And she's she's like such an expert in like Flowdesk, this application that we use to build like HTML emails that I right 100 percent don't even understand. I've never even logged in. Sorry, Grace.

But like then I could design something in InDesign and be like, what if we do this? And she'll sometimes be like, OK, well, that's like completely impossible, but we could try that, you know?

And it's just like, we're always trying to find workarounds and ways to like make things happen.

And it, I don't know, it just makes me feel like I'm contributing, even if I don't know what the hell's going on with the like, you know, the technical side.

Well, sure.

And even sometimes the constraint can give you a little bit more freedom, because it's like, there is a finite solution that you can find and you don't get paralyzed by kind of like, just the infinitude of some design idea, and you just like spiral

out of control. It's like sometimes having that constraint, having that box to work in, actually frees you up to kind of accept what's feasible and find really creative ways to execute on an idea. I bet I can make you sneeze in the next 60 seconds.

Is infinitude a word? Kyle, does that come from somewhere or?

If it isn't, it doesn't matter, because we're not cutting it out.

Infinitude.

Gotta own that one.

All right. Today's episode is brought to you by infinitude. How can you integrate infinitude into your life?

Think about that today, listeners. So is there anything that you find like incredibly challenging or annoying? Let's even say when working with someone like me who doesn't understand anything about how a website is put together.

Like I've definitely built websites in Squarespace or whatever, but I realized that's like not the same thing as what you do. So like, how could I make your job easier when we work together on a project?

God, I really wish you didn't ask me this question because I don't have a good answer.

I'm going to trap you with a lot of like-

So trapped.

Gotcha question. It's a trap! What's your least favorite thing about me, Kyle?

We're having fun.

Honestly, I don't have an answer to like what annoys me. I think it really is all part of the overall process.

And, you know, we do it the other way, too, where like you might be coming in after discovery and after decisions have been made around messaging or mood boards have been presented, right?

So I don't think, and honestly, that's just not how Middle of Six works. Like, I don't think we annoy each other. I think at the risk of sounding trite, like it is actually collaborative.

Like, it's more asking questions of another professional or a design professional and being like, what was the strategy behind this? What were you thinking?

And in the process of understanding someone else's perspective, you then get to learn how to translate it into your own thing. So was that a good enough deflection and dodge from your original question?

And sounds great. Your media training is excellent, Kyle. Your PR team must be thrilled.

I love all my coworkers and none of them annoy me ever.

Perfection.

Honestly, if being annoying could get you kicked out of Middle of Six, I would have been voted off the island day one.

That's not true.

Because I'm the one who's always in the group chat with the ridiculous memes, and we cannot find the group chat anymore because we recently switched to click up from Teams. Anyway, that's inside. That's too meta.

No one wants to hear about our daily work drama. Or do you? Write in, listeners.

Hit us up on social media. Let us know what you want us to talk about. We'll talk about anything.

I don't care. We'll have call in things. We'll do raffle prizes.

We won't do that. But I'm just saying. I don't know.

It's live. So I figured I'd run my mouth.

Anyway, yeah, I think how much time do we have left in our recording?

We're done.

Oh, no. We're done. We're good.

It's The Shortlist.

It's The Shortlist for a reason.

And today it was, you know, we the adrenaline is coursing. I don't know where we are. I have no idea what we started talking about today, but I know that we did it and we are not going to edit this.

We are not. Dammit. Oops.

And we are going to go on with our lives because you know what? There's no editing in life. Everybody out there, friends, live your life as if you were on a live and unedited podcast.

How about that? So thank you for tuning in again to The Shortlist. Subscribe.

Remember to share the love and make a friend. Recommend the podcast to another AEC marketer who wants to feel seen because we see you, we hear you and we love you. See you next week with something probably even weirder.

Bye.

You know, has it ever occurred to you that instead of running around blaming me, you know, this could be a lot more complex.

I mean, it's not just, it might not be just such a simple, you know? What in God's holy name are you blathering about?

Can I sneeze now?

Oh, man.

That was a good one. I'm allergic, sorry, listeners.

The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.