The Shortlist Episode 86: Failing Forward: Analyzing Losses to Grow from Them

Losing a pursuit is never fun but it can be one of the most valuable opportunities for growth. In this episode of The Shortlist, Wendy Simmons is joined by Melissa Richey and Katy Byers to talk about what it really means to “fail forward” and how to turn losses into smarter strategy.

From running more effective debriefs and asking sharper questions to digging into scoring feedback and gut-checking your go/no-go decisions, the team shares practical ways to understand what happened and how to improve next time.

And because losing streaks are part of the process, the conversation also leans into the human side: keeping team morale high, celebrating wins (big or small), and recognizing when a new approach or perspective might be exactly what your team needs.

CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 4

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to The Shortlist. We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist. I'm Wendy Simmons, and today we're talking with Melissa Richey and Katy Byers to discuss failing forward.

In other words, analyzing your pursuit losses to grow from them. Hi, Melissa. Hi, Katy.

Hey, Wendy.

Hi, Katy.

Hi, Melissa. Hi, Wendy.

Thank you both for jumping on the podcast to talk about this subject, something we definitely have not taken a deep dive into before. So this is going to be kind of all new stuff to explore.

Appreciate you preparing some of your thoughts and stories to share. But before we get into that, I thought I might just warm up a little bit with finding out, you know, what are you guys doing this spring? Spring is here.

I'm wearing my Four Leaf Clover shirt for the occasion. So, you know, do you have any rituals or things that you do, you know, once you're past the new year, to get yourself set for the rest of the year and feel good about what you're doing?

I like to do a deep clean. That usually feels pretty good. And do some decluttering, get the house feeling like it's ready to go again.

Classic spring cleaning.

Yep.

Katy, do you have any things you have to do every spring, something that's like on your list that makes you feel alive again?

Well, as far as a list, you know, I have a list with scheduled dates for cleaning projects.

But when I started this week was walking to pick my daughter up from school instead of driving. And even on the rainy days, the last couple of days and just to enjoy the weather and the birds. And it's been really nice.

I'm excited to see the outdoors again.

I'm also looking at usually I have pulled all the plants out of my pots by this time of year, and I did not do that this year. And so I need to do that and get new ones planted, because that's always something I like to get in early in the spring.

So by summer, they're nice and overflowing.

Yeah. The birds for Katy and the flowers for Melissa, that's right on brand for both of you. And of course, the to do lists for every marketer.

That's what was kind of on my mind when I thought of this question, because it feels like the start of the year is always so intense. It's so go, go, go. And we have all these big plans and things that we want to accomplish.

And it's just like, you know, putting away last year and getting in. And I just feel like spring is this nice time to pause and like, look ahead more clearly. So sounds like you found some ways to do that.

That's really awesome. What's our beautiful segue into our topic then failing forward? I'm not that brilliant to think of that, but this is a good topic.

It maybe goes into that spring cleaning category of, you know, we work really hard on pursuits and all the BD we've been talking about on the podcast, all the pre-positioning, all the stuff that we do to do a great job through the pursuit process,

but doesn't always mean a win, right? And how do we move forward from that, not just put our heads in the sand, but actually grow from it. Grow. There's spring.

Okay. That's a decent segue. We got there.

Yes. All right. So, Katy, do you mind just sharing with our listeners what we're talking about today, why you thought it was important?

Yeah.

We are talking about losing, which is by a mile, my least favorite thing in the world. I do not like to lose. I'm very competitive.

I think Melissa and I share that trait. We like to talk about making the short list and winning the project because that's what we do a lot of the time, toot-toot. But what happens when you don't win?

That's also very important. Everybody loses sometimes. We know for every winning pursuit effort, there's at least one loser, right?

And sometimes upwards of 10, depending on how many firms pursued the RFP. So what can those firms get from the efforts put into the pursuit?

And since we're going to be focusing also on that analysis to grow from it, Melissa, do you want to share a little bit of why looking inward, digging deep, is an important part of the process of moving beyond losing?

Yeah, I mean, nobody has 100% hit rate. We're all going to lose some of the pursuits, even the ones you were well positioned for. We've probably all heard that, well, we just had to select a different consultant this time.

We couldn't give you the fifth project in a row. I mean, sometimes there's just factors, you know, political optics that you can't overcome. So let's spend the time to learn from it.

You know, it was a big effort. You spent money and time and resources to go after the pursuit. So let's get something out of that.

Go and find out, why did you lose? What can you do better? And make the loss a win in data that you can apply for the next one.

Right, if there's a nugget to take away or something that you can put in the bank for later, something that can go into the toolkit, I'm using a lot of metaphors here, but it's all applicable when you're in the moment, when you're in the pursuit, to

be able to draw from that. And if you haven't paused long enough to understand where the miss was or to understand that you don't need to radically change your strategy because that was just, you know, because you understand what happened, that can

make all of it stronger. So, all right, let's say we've spent years prepositioning, months anticipating the RFP and cheering on all the people who are gonna get that out the door so we could receive it.

We worked again for weeks, maybe weeks and weeks and weeks on this proposal, and the team went to the interview, but they did not win. They did not win the award.

What is your next step, Melissa, when you get that email, that very sad, unfortunately, you were not selected type of email or, you know, whatever comes across your desk? What's your next move?

I might have to like go and take a walk around the block so I can process it a little bit on my own before I tell either our client, I mean, this is more in-house, I mean, usually the client's telling me, but when I worked in-house, it was like,

okay, I need to like get my emotion out of this a little bit before I go to the team. But one, let them know. So no one's sitting around waiting that thinking there's a contract coming, but then let's get the debrief scheduled.

We want to find out what, can we get the score sheets? Can we get the submissions? Do we have to wait until they select the firm and get them under contract?

So can I refresh my memory from the RFP, what were all the rules around the debrief process, but definitely get that request out for the debrief.

We've talked about this in other episodes about also debriefing internally before we hear what the result is, right? Especially after an interview. Debrief with your team right away.

So maybe you might also pull out those notes. I think I might be like, okay, what do we say? How did we come out of that interview feeling?

And how does that compare to maybe what you're seeing on that score sheet or something? So yeah, piling that up together.

And then also, if it was a pursuit that you know other firms, other industry colleagues were pursuing, reach out to your network and see like, hey, did you hear who got it? Or did you hear why they picked them?

Especially if you're a sub-consultant, you might have been on multiple teams. So you might have some Intel or some valuable information to the primes you teamed with on little nuggets of why they won.

Or if you're working on another project for that client, you know, hey, project manager, you're working with this city. Any Intel you've heard about why we didn't get the next one.

So, you know, just kind of internal network, external network, and while it's fresh, because when we're faced with, we can't have a debrief until the project's under contract.

That could be a month or two away, and people aren't going to remember a lot. So trying to get that primacy of why didn't we get this and find out as much as you can as soon as possible.

And as the marketer, you're probably documenting this in a way that other people can look back on. Maybe it's in your database, maybe it's in your OneNote, whatever it is. So you've got that dossier of like, here's, you know, we're tracking all this.

Katy, what are some of the things? You're very pragmatic, so I'm thinking you have a checklist that you're following. What are the first things that you do when you unfortunately find out your team did not win?

What's top of your mind?

In a similar vein to Melissa, I like a good cry first to get that out of the way. Just to feel my feels and then figure out what the next step is.

I think that analyzing our position and what we thought our position was, going into the pursuit is really important. Like you said, Wendy doing an internal debrief, I think is very valuable.

I like looking at the go-no-go and kind of scrubbing through the conversation. I mean, I think it's one of the most important conversations that we had as a team. And then a debrief with the client, I think is just the most valuable.

I mean, if you're looking at data that you're getting from a marketing standpoint, you are getting so much more data when you lose than when you win. Because when you win, immediately, we're in contract negotiations.

There's no need for this further consideration of how we did on the pursuit because we won. When you lose, we can dig into it. We get a lot of information.

So our job is not done at this point.

Pretty important to move forward with the debrief. And it also may not feel like the most comfortable thing to do, depending on how often you or your team members are used to requesting it.

It seems like it should be done every time, at least asked for.

Katy, do you have some tips for how to engage with that debrief conversation, how to ask for it, what kind of debrief format you like, or anything that's worked for you in the past?

Yeah. I think as far as approaching the client, I like to be very considerate of their time. I am asking them for something that is truly benefiting our firm, my firm that I am working for, and doesn't add a ton of value to them.

So making sure that we are grateful for their time and offering a 15-minute, a 10-minute call if they're starting to decline. I think that in-person is the best-case scenario just to have a human connection.

I think you're more likely to get some really honest, candid feedback when you're sitting across the table from somebody over coffee and a croissant.

Yeah. And then, obviously, there's the very formal process of a debrief, too. So it depends on what's the client, what's the market, what's the procurement type.

There's going to be different styles of debriefs allowed. Or I'm guessing also there's some owners that don't want a debrief.

It's an uncomfortable moment for them to have to articulate what they were thinking or to justify what their rationale was on all that stuff, right? So there's one side of it which might be a little more casual, and then the formal side.

Melissa, have you sat in formal debriefs for public project pursuits?

Yeah. The most formal debrief I sat on was for a project with the Corps of Engineers, US. Army Corps of Engineers.

So it was months later, and the contracting officer sat down with us, and it was a joint venture pursuit type of thing.

So it was a couple from my firm and a couple from the partner firm, and they have the score sheet with the comments, and then you just start running through them. And that experience for me was, I was maybe mid-career at that point in time.

So sensitive to like, if the client said something, I'm not going to disagree with them. But there were things they said like, your cost estimator didn't have the such-and-such certification.

And my marketing coordinator, I like looked at each other like side-eyed, like knew it did. And the partner firm was like, yes, it did. And he just kind of went at them.

And that was a little shocking to me that he was so forceful. And then I later learned that he used to work at the Corps of Engineers. So maybe he felt a little bit more empowered to push back on that.

But that was one where I was like, okay, there are some people that are going to push back if they give you a debrief. But on the other side of that, the contract's already been signed with someone else. Like, we didn't get it.

It doesn't really matter if they think we do or don't have the right certified person. Like, we did.

So that was probably the most formal.

Yeah, there's definitely some political actions, which I suppose that's why big agencies like the federal government don't give debriefs until the contract's signed, because the protest period has passed. We're not going to play that game.

So that was the most formal one I've done. And then I've also just done them one-on-one with a client, either in person or over the phone, had the score sheets, talked about it.

I am a proponent of not having the project team go to the debrief because it's awkward for the client to tell someone, yeah, you didn't make the cut.

So I'm with Katy that you're going to get a little more candid feedback sitting face to face with someone and someone that wasn't on the project team didn't go to the interview.

Yeah, who do you think should facilitate the debrief, if you think is that marketing BD, or are there other people that might be a good fit, just not the project core team themselves?

Yeah, I mean, I'm always a proponent of marketing or business development doing it, but I suppose, you know, some executive level, principal level that wasn't on the project or assigned the project could do it, but yeah.

I think it's really great when marketing gets to go. When I was working in-house, I think I only went to the public project debriefs.

That was maybe the system that they had, and that's how it worked out, but I welcomed every chance to go to the University of Washington or a school district or whatever it might be, to go and sit with them in here directly.

And then also getting to flip through all of the proposals. At the time when I was doing that, we were all submitting hard copies or at least our one original hard copy for that public work stuff.

And so to flip through the competitor's proposal, you couldn't copy it, you couldn't do anything with it. That was good.

There are some boundaries there, but at the same time, just being able to see how they approached, gosh, those dang org charts, especially when it's alternative delivery and teams can be very complicated. How did they answer that?

And we're just always taking inspiration from that kind of thing. I don't think anyone wants to copy or look like your competitor, but you want to just gain some insights. How did they approach that?

Or how are they showing this expertise? And also, what projects did they have that were so great? You know, just to be able to compare, it makes you feel like you're pulling the right stuff.

So when you said that you couldn't make a copy of it, you're reminding me of a industry friend who told me she went to one of those debriefs.

And so she'd like, you know, the person wasn't in the room and she got her phone out to like take a picture and they walked back in while she was doing that. So, you know, you're running a risk if you want to kind of skirt the rules there.

I am also reminded of now another most bizarre debrief I've ever had where we were the winner. It was like some sort of group debrief for a port district. And it was a group debrief and my firm won, but we still went just to hear what they said.

And they like held our proposal up and was like, you should do it like this, which was flattering. But also like, did you have to be that like give away what we did so blatantly?

So that was that was an interesting debrief situation I had in the past.

If you'd like a copy of this winning proposal, just email us. And then you can use it next time. And we were like, all the marketers were like, errr.

Cute. That's funny. Well, and I also have been invited to do a debrief for the, you know, I'm not going to name any names, but they said, hey, if you want to use the copy machine, it's right there.

They said that. I was like, well, that is so nice of you. I took copies of certain parts, right?

I'm not going to copy 500 pages of things, but, you know, so you don't know what you're going to get.

Let me rip this binding out and just run this through the document feeder.

Yeah, exactly. Like, I just want to see all their graphics. That's the part that would always, I was drawn in by that part.

So I think we're digressing, though, a little bit to the fun of being in a debrief and like when you get to snoop around, which is true. So maybe that does work with making it not feel like so stressful, you know?

It's not like, it's not intended to be personally, professionally critical to yourself or your firm, but you may hear some points that are just not as easy to hear, or if there was a miss that feels like, oh, I should have pushed on that or helped

the team a little bit better. That can be, you know, like a little bit, but we want to keep in mind we're trying to learn here, right?

Yeah, you might find out that there was a fatal flaw related to a subconsultant you had on your team.

Like, it really wasn't anything that your firm did, but you didn't do enough, you know, background research to understand someone had a black eye with that agency, and you went and put them on the team because you didn't know about it.

Yep, can be as simple as that, right? So, it's like noted.

Yeah, I have a, that reminds me of a story, Melissa, working with a small county in rural Oregon, and I was working for a firm, we were tracking the pursuit, we were a shoo-in, we have a great relationship with the client, waiting for the RFP, the

RFP drops, but we got it before it was actually released publicly, the client sent it to us directly, we proposed, and we lost. And it was really shocking since the PM and the principal had very strong relationships.

We had no expectation that it was a loss.

So since that existing relationship was so strong, I did the debrief alone with the county contact and really led the meeting with, hey, this is a conversation between you and I, I'm not gonna go back to our team and tell them verbatim what we said.

So I will appreciate as open and honest and transparent feedback as you'd be willing to provide to help me do my job to support our marketing efforts.

And I got this amazing conversation where I found out that the county project manager had a negative experience with one of the members of our team that we kept putting on the proposals for them.

So it was an interesting, it was like, it was a, the personalities didn't quite mix. And I don't think there would have been any other way that we would have gotten that feedback other than that specific situation given this county PM's personality.

So I think that was really valuable. It was a hard way to learn the lesson, but it was still really valuable.

Yeah, I've gotten feedback not from a public agency, but for public projects where we were a sub-consultant to an architect and just more informal at one of our professional association meetings, pretty much ended up finding out, we're not putting

your company on the team because you keep giving us this project manager and it is not a fit. Their style does not jive with us. So we don't have a problem with your company overall, but we just need a different PM.

So and it was something that I had to remind people and you have to be so delicate because you don't want to hurt someone's feelings or make them feel so she can tap dancing around like, Oh no, we're going to put so and so on at this time.

And it's above my pay grade. You guys can talk about that at a different level, but it's my job to make sure we put the right person on the team.

And that is why the marketing facilitated or like in some of Middle of Six's stuff, we'll just shorthand it. Marketing only debriefs happen, right? Like it's I think we can make the time to do it.

We probably have a running list of questions. They're probably related to the strategy matrix we were working on when we were doing the proposal. Like it's pretty easy for us to come prepared.

And then the added bonus of, and it's probably fair, like Katy said, to like state it outright, like this is a safe space.

I'm not going to share your words verbatim, but I really want to know as much as you can share so that I can help our team do better, be better, just kind of get everything in line because it's really important that we work with you in the future.

And so, yeah, we call that the marketing-only debrief, but I don't know if that makes sense if you're not thinking of it in this context.

Katy or Melissa, like how, what are some of the things that you do to prepare for the debrief, like getting your list together or other things to go into it?

I think thoughtfully generating questions that are very specific to the proposal effort. I think coming to a debrief with generic questions is insulting, and it can waste both parties' time.

So sitting down, thinking about what questions would be the most valuable. And then if you already have like the rubric, and you have the information of who won the proposal, being able to ask very direct questions, what made so-and-so stand out?

What was most compelling about this section of their proposal that inspired you to give them 10 out of 10 points?

Yeah, and then if you had to include a project approach, and it was something you all worked on, and maybe you took a risk or not, but having those real specific questions about, we proposed this type of stormwater management system, did you have

issues with that? You know, I used to work for a firm that did civil engineering, so sometimes there were things like, our maintenance people don't want to maintain those types of storm filter vaults, so we didn't like that you proposed that.

It showed you didn't know enough about us.

So I mean, it can be that level, but then you know that for next time, I mean if you're doing the next proposal, and they say that we're going to do that, you're like, no, no, remember, they don't like those at that city.

Yeah, it's like the more specific you can be with your question, the more likely you'll get a specific answer that is tangible that you could actually work with.

Like this is something, because the score sheet will give you the generalization of where you missed or whatever. Melissa, are there other things that are like on your to ask lists or things that you do to prepare for the debriefs?

Or when you're in the moment of it, you know?

I had a running list of questions that, you know, some of the more general, the ones I'm going to ask. And then I would put some thought to more specific questions for that pursuit. And then I'm very much like kind of feel out the situation.

And if they are not really giving you much, you're like, okay, I just got to get to the question that I really need to ask and let this person go because they're clearly not interested.

Or sometimes you ask one question and then they just talk and talk and talk and talk. So then you're just like scribbling notes as quickly as possible. But I like to stay flexible and kind of respond to how the person is in the moment.

Yeah.

See if there's an opportunity to dig a little bit deeper or something that kind of like pops into your minds either side. It is a conversation, right? Not fully scripted.

Yeah.

And sometimes you'll hear, oh, someone else on the panel felt a lot differently from than I did.

So I've gotten that where they said, well, you might want to go talk to so and so because they were they they had you rated first, are they those types of conversations that happened behind closed doors?

And so you might get the list of selection panelists of someone else you might want to talk to. Not every pursuit is that level, but the big must win, like huge efforts, like you might want to talk to a couple of different people.

Different perspectives and also people who have different boundaries of what they're allowed to share, right? I mean, some people can just speak professionally offline. So sorry, Katy, what were you going to add to that?

I was just going to add to Melissa's point of keeping the conversation flexible.

I think it could be a little nerve-wracking to facilitate a debrief.

And I know at least for myself, I can get nerves and just kind of like shaking it off and remembering that you're talking to another human being before you sit down for that conversation will really help that conversation be more genuine.

Right. So some preparation, because preparation helps us to like let go a little bit. You've got your notes, but then you're just really focused on listening.

And as Melissa said, madly scribbling her notes down so she can capture all those details and not just have nothing to bring back to the team.

How do you, for either of you, you know, prepare your notes or how do you actually do the failing forward part, which is like bringing it back to the team, communicating, capturing it?

I would love to talk about anything related to the action that comes out of those notes.

Well, I take my scribbles and start transcribing them into something that's legible for someone besides me right away, like while it's fresh in your mind.

Like if you can just go immediately back to your desk and type them up while everything's fresh, that's one thing.

If you got some maybe challenging feedback about someone on your team, you know, kind of spending a little time thinking about how you're going to discuss that, you know, maybe you need to go to their supervisor, their principal and talk about how

are we going to do this? Because sometimes everyone knew you went to the debrief and they're like, so what did you hear? And you're like, I'll get to this in a minute.

Yeah, you get accosted at the elevator or something. Give me a second. I need a minute.

One of the other things that is super important to do at a debrief, assuming that, you know, it's generally positive feedback, is to ask the client, what projects do you have coming up?

Is there, now that you've seen our qualifications or you saw our approach, is there something you have coming up that you think we might be better suited for?

So finding out about the next project is probably one of the most valuable things you can get out of a debrief.

Katy, do you have any tips for, like, as you're taking all your notes and, like, actually getting them out to people, you know?

I mean, maybe the simplest answer is an email, but there must be some ways to not let that one email be the only touch point, right? So what are some of the things that you do?

Yeah, I think entering relevant information into a CRM is really valuable. And then also just, like Melissa said, kind of distilling notes into something that is sensical for the entire team to review and providing that to everybody.

I think that what you can do with the information to be immediately helpful to your pipeline that you have is look at the other pursuits that you have or the other leads that you have for that client in your CRM and how you can immediately apply this

feedback and add the new leads hopefully that you got by asking the client what else do you have coming down the pipeline and adding that information to your database. And I think that that is the best way to kind of get your immediate measurable

Yeah.

And then is there some action? Is there something you can do? Do they need help getting a grant to fund the project?

Do they need people to go out and do phone banking to help get the bond to pass for that next project? What are other ways you can be of service to help the client with that project? Do they need help on a pre-design study?

Is there a small scope that they could hire you off the roster for to help get them ready to put out the RFQ for the full job? So kind of looking for those opportunities.

Yeah. And even if they need help with a service that you don't offer, I think that's an awesome opportunity to make connections.

So many times, especially if you've been in this industry for a while, you have connections at all these different firms offering all these different services. So if you can provide that to your client, I think that's really valuable.

Right.

It goes without saying, but it's so clear in this last little bit that we were talking about, about what a great business development touch point a debrief can be, especially when it can be from marketing lead, and you just can speak about the

company and the projects and the team in a different way, from the folks who are doing the work themselves or that project executive. I just think we can bring a different perspective and we're looking at all of the touch points that you could make

connections. And that feels like a big win coming out of a loss that you can take back. So that's good. Put that on your notes, right?

The bottom part is like ask, what else is coming up? You know, what's on your mind? What do you need help with?

In that analyzing of the results you find, maybe you start seeing trends like, okay, we've done an analysis of our hit rate.

We are shortlisting and losing in the interview consistently. Or the same group project team is consistently losing it in the interview. So that could probably be a sign that maybe there's some interview training that is in order.

Yeah, I think another valuable part of zooming out and looking at long-term trends is you can potentially determine if it makes sense to be pursuing certain markets, market sectors, clients.

If you keep losing a pursuit and the motivation is price and you're not able or willing to decrease your price, I think it might be time to consider not pursuing with that client anymore.

Right, because a team can lose a few times. We all know you can't win every single one and whatever the average industry, average hit rate is and all that stuff.

But if you're just consistently losing, there's a point when you just have to say enough is enough.

And maybe through the debriefs, you actually have some data there to show what the cost has been, what maybe it's just not a right fit or it would take some other strategic moves, hiring or different kinds of positioning to actually be able to win.

So why drag your team through so many losses again and again?

Yeah, that debrief can be those proof points. Well, maybe as work in the private sector is getting more slim to come by, there's definitely a tendency for firms to go for public work.

But a lot of agencies see designers that do private work and designers that do public work as two very different things.

So maybe you're not getting much headway in convincing your firm of that, but you can go to the debrief and then you can be like, look, I heard it from the client. We're a developers engineer.

We're not a municipal engineer, so we either need to make some strategic hires. There's other things we need to do before we just start responding to RFQs if this is the direction we want to take the firm.

Yeah, I like the idea, Melissa, of backing that up with data too. We spent this many hours on this pursuit effort. Let's translate that to dollars and let's determine if it makes sense for us to continue this in the fashion that we are.

How do you hope your team stay motivated when it's like, nope, we're still going to keep pursuing.

We want to break into this market. We got to go again. How do you keep the team's spirits up and that winning spirit, the competitive spirit going because you have to have that going into those meetings too.

A trick that I like to pull out is just celebrating every single win.

Even if it is a repeat client and it is a contract that was signed and we did not compete, I celebrate the win with the entire team because that client can work with anybody and they chose to work with us and sign this contract with us.

And making sure that we celebrate that, I think, gives the team an opportunity to get out of their funk.

People like to hear the bell ring, you know, wherever, however that is. If it's in real life or, you know, whatever, just kind of like a celebratory thing.

But that makes it lists everybody's spirit, kind of raise your cup of coffee or whatever, toast your team members. That feels good to celebrate all those wins, even the small ones.

Yeah, from a marketing perspective, I like to do some storytelling with it. So I've been at firms before.

If we win a project or if we have a new contract signed, I provide an overview and it's an all firm announcement of this is a contract we just signed and this is going to provide homes to 80 families that are currently experiencing houselessness in

our region or this is going to provide food for children that are experiencing food scarcity or anything along those lines. Not all projects are going to be a community impactful projects in that way, but I think that it is really valuable to kind of

Yeah, and then you're giving them, because you were saying that you want to tell the story, right?

Now they actually are armed with the story to go out there too and talk about, you know, if someone asks them at a next industry event, like, what's going on? What are you working on? What's the latest?

You know, they'll have that sort of top of mind, like, oh my gosh, you just won this really cool project and they can speak to it, even if they weren't on the pursuit team, because there's like there's some more meaning behind it.

Yeah. Well, I've had where a spat of losses where we were hearing your approach was too generic turned into, all right, marketing, we are going to write these approaches.

We are going to interview the team and ask them questions, and then we're going to write it and have them read it and make sure it's technically accurate, because I think we might be better writers than they are. So and it worked.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, sometimes you need to throw everything out.

I mean, I've worked with a team before where they're like, this is a must win. I don't know that they had been losing, but in that same mentality, it's like we don't want to go to the debrief.

We want to win this, and that can energize a team to be like, we are going to throw out the playbook and we are going to bespoke this, you know, and just make it so focused on the client and just try it.

Those are the pursuits, though, that when we lose, that's the one that makes me cry, because I've just thrown everything into it.

But if you have some feedback to go from that client, and on past losses or whatever, you are better armed with information so that you can put together, like a showstopper and go all in.

It's hard to do that when you're just like trying to, to try to win for the first time in an area, you just don't have enough. It takes a little bit more to get your heart in there.

Well, is there anything else that we didn't talk about, about the failing forward and analyzing the data and bringing the notes back to your team? Is there anything else that we feel like is a good gem to share with our listeners?

Any parting words of wisdom?

I want to underscore the value of the data.

I think that even seeing, if you look at the five proposals that were submitted, and four of them contain site logistics plans that weren't necessarily asked for, and yours is the only one that doesn't, maybe that tells us we did not know the client

very well. Maybe there's something different we need to be doing in our process. It's not necessarily about that client in particular, but it's more about what can we change in our process from what we're learning with this debrief.

Yeah. One thing that was coming up, if you're sitting there thinking, well, I don't have a CRM, how am I going to keep track of this data? Make a Word document, client name, have a running list.

Like, it doesn't have to be fancy. It just has to be somewhere where you know where to go back and look for what did we hear last time.

And then you've got this running list for all the different clients you work with and even the specific PM that gave you the feedback. Because guess what? That PM might move to a different place.

And then you'll have new intel on what makes them tick.

You could just be like Melissa and have your brain do CRM and you'll be good to go.

And for those who don't have that option, Word is a good option there. OneNote, we keep a lot of things in that. And we've talked about it in another podcast, the dossier that you're building for the client.

You're going to have similar interview questions every time. I mean, you know, building up this, taking the time to make your notes written up in a way that you can search and find them accessibly next time.

I mean, it's just like part of doing our marketer job, right? We can really like give our team the best start to a pursuit if we're capturing all of that. So yeah, don't be intimidated if you don't have the CRM piece of it.

There's lots of ways to capture the information. And then the important piece is like, you know, it's hard to win when the RFPs are rocked through the windshield.

You didn't have time to prepare all of this stuff, but if your team is pre-positioning and then doing their go-no-go, marketing can be bringing that de-brief information right away, saying like, well, here's what we heard last time.

How have we changed? How have we, you know, addressed this issue and it can give you some more firepower for being able to go or not.

All right, well, thank you both for digging into de-briefs and appreciate the conversation and sharing some of the stories and knowing that you both have cried over proposal losses, like me. Thanks for being here. See you on the next one.

Thank you, Wendy.

Thanks, Wendy.

The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six.

Our producer is Kyle Davis, with digital marketing support by the team at Middle of Six. If you're looking for past episodes or more info, check out our podcast page at middleofsix.com/theshortlist.

You can follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Middle of Six. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Until next time, keep on hustling.

The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.