The Shortlist Episode 82: Business Development for Everyone

Business development (BD) can feel like a job reserved for firm leaders or dedicated rainmakers, but in reality, it touches everyone in the AEC industry. In this conversation, Wendy Simmons sits down with Middle of Six Senior Marketing Strategist, Katy Byers, to break down how BD intersects with everyone's role.

Katy, a natural-born networker and connector, unpacks common barriers—lack of permission, time, or confidence—and shares practical ways to make BD more accessible and less intimidating. With the right mindset and tools like a CRM, marketers can stop reacting to RFP "opportunities" and start pre-positioning for the next win.

The big takeaway? BD isn't about selling. It's about consistency, curiosity, practice (because "practice makes progress"), and making space to develop genuine relationships with your firm's clients and project partners.

CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 3

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to The Shortlist, we're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.

I'm Wendy Simmons, and today we're talking with Middle of Six Senior Marketing Strategist, Katy Byers, to discuss business development tactics for everyone. Hi, Katy.

Hi, Wendy.

Thank you for jumping on the pod. I know business development, or BD, is what we will say a ton in this episode, is near and dear to your heart. You love it, you would do it for fun.

You've said that before, I'm probably stealing your thunder for later on. So before we get into the topic and why we thought this was important for our listeners and why they might be interested, I am just curious, how's your week going?

How much BD are you juggling? How are you managing all your work and BD at the same time? Give our listeners a little overview about what you're doing this week.

Yeah, well, perfect timing because I was out developing business into the night last night at an S&PS event.

So, and like you said, it comes pretty natural. I'm like, sometimes I forget that this is part of my job because I'm just hanging out with friends. And that's what I was doing last night.

Just chatting and talking with folks.

Do you find like it's hard to make time for BD or easy because you're just out there in the world and, you know, visiting?

Yeah, no, it's the it's very easy. It's the furthest thing from hard because I love to chat. Anybody who knows me knows that.

So if I get a reason to chat with somebody, then I'm a happy girl.

Yeah, I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about how like some of those barriers that people find in making time for BD. But I'm glad to hear that for you, it comes easily, you know, and that it's something that you really like to do. We appreciate that.

And hopefully, what we talk about today will make it feel easier for everyone else who either has BD on their actual job description list or just wishes to do more of it and want some tips.

So Katy, do you mind sharing a little bit why this topic popped up on our list? Why you think it could be important for listeners to hear about? Do you want to give us a little overview about what we're going to talk about today?

Yeah, so a big reason that we wanted to talk about it is that we like to talk about the holistic view of business development and the roles that everybody in a firm plays in BD.

And that means marketing, that means seller-doers, that means drafters, everybody involved, and what they're up to and what that looks like.

Lots of firms do have a role that is director of business development, and that can be much more clear that that person could be responsible for it, like measuring, guiding, providing training, you know, all of that. But you're right.

Everyone technically does have an element of BD in their role, even if it is as simple as a foreman on a job site, you know, doing a good job, being polite, making sure their team is like doing quality work so that their company can be hired again,

right? That is an element of good business development. But we can get into more about how, you know, it doesn't depend no matter what the role is, keeping it in mind that it is part of your job in AEC is like the big takeaway here.

Yep.

So getting into, like I mentioned those barriers, I don't know, I get to talk to people out at conferences so I can certainly chime in on some of the things I've heard or things that I've spoken on.

But, you know, do you want to start us off with some of those things that are right off the top that people complain about being issues with not being able to prioritize or feel good about doing BD?

Yeah, I think the most prominent would be a lack of permission.

People thinking it's not in their job description, somebody else is going to take care of it, they don't understand the business enough, it's above their pay grade, they're not able to go to conferences, and also people think they don't have the

Yes, those are all the things that I hear too about where those barriers are.

And that lack of permission to me feels like it's almost like a company culture type issue.

And I don't want to say that as like, oh, you have a bad company culture if people feel like they have lack of permission, but maybe that's where it starts, is that has it been communicated, that simple thing up front was that we all do play a role

in winning the next work and developing relationships, no matter what your job title is. So is that being said across the company? Is that something that comes up?

Is there space, are managers and leaders bringing up business development opportunities as part of setting goals, writing it into smaller components of a project, part of a win strategy, thinking about talking to the team at any level and

communicating to them how they could help win or position the firm, right? So is it even just being talked about whether it's part of a job description or just in small ways and how we do the work?

So lack of permission is definitely one that I think a lot of small and medium sized businesses struggle with.

Yeah, and I think lack of permission can also come from yourself.

And I know for me, in my first marketing manager role, going to a business development focused conference where there were a lot of clients there, my manager at that time, who was our business development director for our firm, pulled me aside

partway through the conference and said, do you like business development? And I never really thought about it. And I realized I do, but I didn't really know what it was exactly.

And I gave myself the permission to be like, oh, this skill that I always have been not aware that it was a skill, which is relationship building and conversation building and networking. I can use this in my job.

And the moment that that light switch went off for me, I think my career really took a different direction.

That's such a good way to think about it, right? It's like lack of permission doesn't mean that your supervisor says, I'm making an assignment, you have permission to go and spend money and go to a luncheon. And here's the expectation.

But even for us to flip that switch in our mind and think, hey, I want to go and do this. I want to learn more. This is something that is interesting.

It could help me do my job better. And then all of a sudden now maybe that barrier is lower because you've given yourself permission that you could see the value you could be adding or an opportunity to grow your career.

I don't know how much we'll get into that aspect of it in this conversation, but there's that piece too, in that business development, taking ownership of it, taking interest in it can really help, especially marketers advance their careers and go to

another level within their company. So those are some reasons why you might want to give yourself permission to make a suggestion, you know, get involved, realize that if you joined an industry association, you know, you could bring another

perspective, especially the marketing side of it that could be valuable. You mentioned lack of time. Do you have tricks or suggestions on the lack of time issue?

Or what do you think is the biggest issue, the barrier there, just besides the fact that everyone has more than a full time job?

I think these days, you know, we're all working right at that, you know, 40-hour-plus every week, you know, how do you find time to do more BD?

I think my best tip for creating time for BD would be adding it to the calendar. And that's always the tip that I would give to seller-doers that I was needing, that I was supporting their BD efforts when I was an in-house marketer.

I would put BD time on their calendars and hold it and put a to-do list on that calendar home for them. So I do the same thing for myself.

And I think just having that there as a reminder of this is what I'm going to do really reminds you to kind of move that process forward.

Yeah, you snuck in there something that I think is important to underline again. Making time, you know, lack of time is the barrier. So then the solution is making time and giving yourself permission, realizing that this is valuable.

And then probably doing the prep work. We can talk about some of the tips that you use, but doing the prep work so that when you have made that time and you go and do that, that you're actually making the most of that effort.

Then you can feel better about being out of the office or pushing things to the side so that you can make that time. And that last barrier that you mentioned was you're not even knowing where to start. So gosh, that's a big one.

That's a big one. But let's just put a pin in that for as we're getting into more of the tips to just acknowledge that, yeah, depending on what your experience is with BD, you may not even know what is appropriate for me to be doing.

You know, what are the simple things, and then how can it grow from there? We have a good graphic we've shared in other formats where there's a pyramid of there's low-hanging fruit.

There's things that everyone can be doing, and you can get more and more targeted as you grow in your career and get more comfortable in that space.

Let's get into some more tips about, you know, how different ways that maybe you've seen, you've been guiding teams, Katy, related to BD.

You know, how have you helped your colleagues lower those barriers, make BD easy for them?

Yeah, I think inviting everyone to the party, inviting everybody in and explaining what BD is on a regular basis is really valuable.

I like to like steal time at all staff meetings and show people what BD looks like, and then provide examples to the team members of what their role in BD is.

I think a great example of that is at a previous firm, a project designer took the information from a BD Lunch and Learn, Company Lunch and Learn that we did and reached out to her network, and she brought in a project.

And that was a new client that then snowballed into a long-term client relationship, because she used to work at that location and she happened to know somebody there.

And just that lightbulb went off for her at that meeting, that she has this network that she can leverage of people that she already has trust with.

And she was able to get that low-hanging fruit, like you said, and then make herself indispensable at the firm, because she really brought that relationship in and has that relationship.

Win right away, right? So you're addressing that lack of permission by inviting everyone in and then reinforcing that by having a success and then making that visible.

I'd say that that's a pretty common issue, is that BD is happening all around us, but how often does that success story get highlighted so that other people can realize, oh, I can do that. I could make that connection.

I didn't realize that that was right in front of us. You mentioned visuals. What other kinds of visuals would you use in those company meetings or as you're coaching people on how they could do well in BD or what it means in their role?

Yeah, I think I love a flow chart that has a timeline of an opportunity turning into a project.

I think, and all of the touch points that come with that because our sales cycle in the AEC world is complex and it's long and there's a lot of touch points. Sometimes, it can take years to go from lead to signed contract.

And I think showing that timeline and all of the people that were involved in that is really valuable. So literally having a slide that has a timeline from the BD person met somebody, the client at a conference.

And then the next touch point, the marketing team keeping the website up to date, SEO optimized, the client opening a newsletter could be one, click rates for the client, things like that.

And then to proposal potentially, and then the drafting and production folks and the project engineers. So really showing every touch point that goes throughout that life cycle, I think demonstrates to people where they fit into the process.

I love that idea.

Are you suggesting that you would create a case study as one example or that you might have as part of like a capture plan to, I don't know, like fill in points, proof points, or like just capture what happened along that client journey, or maybe

Yeah, I think what I'm talking about now is more of a case study to demonstrate to a larger team.

But I think that having that tool, visual tool as a capture planning tool is also really valuable.

Yeah, maybe the case study is the output of other data that you're collecting, and you kind of in time see that you're like, well, look at all of these things that are happening, and the rest of the group really needs to be aware of that, because it

might spark inspiration or motivation. Seeing things up on the screen, create some level of accountability.

People want to contribute, no matter what kind of market situation you're in, but certainly when it's a more competitive market space, I think people are motivated to know what they could be doing.

Could we talk a little bit about tools? Because it sounds like, you know, in your past life, you've had some experience using different tools, different levels of success.

What would you say are some of the top things a company should be using to support their BD efforts?

Ooh, that is such a big question. I think the most obvious answer that you'll probably hear at every AEC marketing conference that you go to is CRM.

So, tracking data to tell us what is working, what is not working, making sure things don't fall through the cracks. We're following up on every lead. You're checking in with your contacts on a regular basis.

We get to determine the ROI on our BD efforts. We're tracking our hit rates. You're really getting all the information, the length of your sales cycle, those touch points that we talked about earlier.

All of that can be pulled from a CRM if you feed it correctly. So I think that is a huge, really valuable tool that is sometimes slept on. I think the less obvious answer is soft skills, relationship building.

I'm gonna say this, full disclosure, I'm not a social scientist. So take this with a grain of salt.

But in my experience, most of the people who are really amazing at designing buildings and engineering bridges, maybe have not focused a ton on their people skills.

And I think that that is totally fine because I'm very grateful that they're very talented in their skill set. But I will say that practice makes progress.

So one thing that I've done in the past is pull a group of engineers or architects into a room, make them all very uncomfortable. And we do networking role playing. So we practice our elevator speeches.

We act like we're meeting each other for the first time at a conference. And just kind of coaching that behavior. And it is very awkward and uncomfortable, but we're all awkward and uncomfortable.

So it brings people's barriers down a bit and allows us to really learn how those interactions look.

I think there is also an option of bringing in an outside consultant, and that can really help your team members, especially seller-doers, that you really need to be able to deliver business development results.

I think having an outside consultant then can help with that.

Yeah, as awkward as that role playing activity can feel, it actually can be less awkward, more exciting, feel just more like kind of training and personal development when you have an outside coach bringing a different energy, as opposed to your

coworkers necessarily trying to coach. And it can be hard internally too, if you're that BD coach within your company, trying to give feedback to your team.

I mean, I think that we all get practiced at that, but the outside coach can be helpful in that way.

What are some of the ways when you were that, doing that for your internal team, that you helped make it feel a little less awkward, a little bit more fun? Did you have any ice breakers or exercises that made it feel more approachable?

Yeah, I think that naming that you feel awkward and likely everybody else feels awkward is the quickest way to break the ice in a room, I'll say. So standing in front of a group of people and saying, I feel very uncomfortable right now.

How do you guys feel? Or this feels very awkward. I think that that puts us all on the same playing field right away.

And folks are willing to be a little bit more vulnerable.

And then once you start to break that ice and people start to be more comfortable, it just it's a snowball effect of all of a sudden, people are cracking jokes, and the mood is a little bit lighter, and people are more perceptive to feedback and

Yeah, being vulnerable, that's good.

And then I'm going to say it, hopefully this is okay to say, but sometimes wine helps in those practices.

Sometimes.

Sometimes, yeah. Or just general, the vibe of having it feel a little bit less like a meeting, and more of an exercise where we can play together. So at a previous firm I worked at, I really loved that they had a monthly BD.

It wasn't called BD for everyone, which is what this episode is called, but it was something like that because it was open to everyone who wanted to do it, but more or less mandatory for all of the project engineers.

So this was at a construction company, so like people who are newer to their career or didn't have a role of project manager or senior project manager who were really doing a ton of BD naturally with part of their job.

So everyone was invited and we would have guests come in, often clients, the guests were our clients that we just wanted to have a conversation with, learn what they were doing, but it was practicing BD.

And there was always some wine and cheese and some other refreshments there to bring the vibe to be just more casual.

And so we were practicing things like our elevator pitch as part of it, or getting an update on what was going on from a business development perspective, or listening to a client talk about projects, all of these things, but it was so much more

approachable because it was an afternoon of conversation. And so that can be a way. I mean, they were less on the spot. They were having to go up there and do their elevator pitch in front of the whole company.

But eventually, they were leading those meetings and taking charge and just made it feel much more approachable because of the setup of the meeting.

Yeah, I love that. That's such a wonderful idea. And I think an important piece of that is the physical space where you're hosting it.

So if it's at the office where people feel comfortable, they know that space.

I think you're more likely to get a more authentic version of somebody than if you're shoving them in a hotel conference room with a bunch of people they've never met before.

Yeah, or bringing out the video camera and say like, well, we're going to record you doing this. And then we want to watch back and see what that body language is, which can be helpful and can be useful in interview prep and presentation coaching.

Yeah, okay, we get it. But that's going to be the scenario where folks are like, you know what, I actually don't have any time for BD. Thank you very much.

Oh, man. Well, since we opened up the or we mentioned elevator pitches, maybe we could talk about that for a second because I think that that's a curiosity, and often comes up in more formalized coaching, like practicing that.

Were you ever coaching that with your internal teams, Katy? Like, what do you see the importance of kind of having a down pat elevator pitch?

Yeah, I think it's vital for everybody at the firm to have an elevator pitch. And literally, you could be in an elevator with somebody, and they happen to be a potential client. And what are you going to say?

So I think that that is marketing slash business development job, is to arm our people with strong elevator pitches that are their words, not ours. We don't want to give people scripts.

We want to talk through and have conversations until somebody feels confident talking about it in their own voice.

Highlight that. This is the quote of the episode maybe there. In your own words.

I know. And it can be so hard as the marketing person, and our words can be so polished. And we deliver them for proposals and websites, and that's a place where those words do need to be really polished.

But in real life, you need to listen. Learn well, and be comfortable with your own words, and be comfortable that you can say it differently every time. And that works well too.

I was on the pickleball court two weeks ago, no joke, and playing with someone I hadn't played with before, because it's pretty common. You just get mixed in with other people, and he's like, hey, what do you do?

Or maybe I was wearing my Middle of Six sweater. He's like, Middle of Six, what's that? You know, any of those introductions.

And I said, oh, I run a marketing consultancy. We work with general contractors and architects. It's kind of very common for me to just kind of throw that part out to give them an idea.

Because I think sometimes when people hear marketing, I mean, that could just be all so many different things. And I like to let people know that I'm an AEC and what that means. And then that was probably all I was going to do, right?

To this perfect stranger on a pickleball court at 9 p.m. at night or something like that, right? But he said, oh, really?

I work for, fill in the blank, very large general contractor in Southern California. So all of a sudden now I see that his interest has peaked. He's like, he knows what I'm talking about.

I can change by language because he's a technical person and is going to understand exactly what I say when I talk about, oh, we do a lot of RFPs and then often that leads to website updates and branding.

And I can kind of extend my elevator pitch because I listened and I realized that, hey, we've got a connection here.

So yeah, whether you're in an elevator or walking across to sports court before your next game, you might run into somebody and get the chance to practice it. So I agree with that.

In your own words and being able to flex it and adjust it based on the feedback you're getting from the person you're talking to.

I love that.

Any other tips on how to prepare your elevator pitch? Do people need to practice it, write it down, keep it in their wallet? Any other suggestions?

I think everybody has their own approach to public speaking in a way, right?

I would steer clear of writing things down and having written things to read ever. I think if you don't feel confident in your elevator pitch, find somebody in your firm who you can talk it through with.

I think talking it through with another person is the best way to hash out what that is.

Somebody that you feel comfortable with, that you can mess up or say something wrong or say something silly, and you guys can just go back and forth a little bit until you have something that you feel really comfortable with.

And if you don't think that you have an idea of the elevator, what the elevator pitch would be, I think that means that you need to do some research on your firm as well.

Like you, that's something that as an employee of your firm, you should understand your mission, your values, why you guys are doing the work you're doing, what work you're doing.

So I think that's just good stuff to have in your brain as you're doing your everyday work.

So now you've done your elevator pitch. Pitch makes it sound so serious, but you've chatted with someone, you were out in the world, you were at an industry event, whatever it is, fill in the blank where you were at and you had that conversation.

What do you do with that? How do we get like circling way back to that first tool that you suggested, which was the CRM, the Customer Relationship Management Tool? Where do we go?

That's a big gap between just being able to talk about your company and then bringing it back to be something useful. Katy, fill in all of that information for us. Fill in that gap.

You are going to feed your leads to the CRM.

That is what builds your pipeline. Having that lead pipeline, statistically increases your chances of winning work. It might not feel like that.

It might feel silly writing down the notes from every person you talk to at a conference or some people think it's a waste of time. I'm telling you now it is not. Statistically we see that the bigger your pipeline is, the more work that you win.

So building that pipeline and tracking that, that will get you work and that will pay off in the future. In our industry, it's probably a year, year and a half, two years down the road, but you do see the ROI eventually.

I think most companies, we would generally say, yes, more work. We want more work or they're in a growth mindset. But also, maybe you're a smaller firm or you're in a firm where like we have the, we're good.

We don't have these ambitious goals to double revenue in the next two years or something. But having that bigger pipeline means you have more opportunities to choose from.

You can pick the best work, the most profitable work, the work that makes your team really happy. So I just want to say it's not all just about having more opportunities, period.

It is about being able then be selective about what comes along, having that inside information because you built a relationship or a friendship so you can then be choosy about where you're going for, or make additional referrals or recommendations

Yeah, and filling up that pipeline with a diversity of work, like you mentioned, different contract sizes.

I think that that is really valuable for the folks that are leading the business when they're talking about resource planning, capacity planning. That's something that you and Melissa talked about in the last episode with traction and utilization.

And that's something that, especially for smaller firms, that can be kind of scary.

And I think have being able to look at your pipeline and see, oh, we need a big contract or we need a couple of small contracts over the next two months, or we need to start something in July is when we fall off.

Now you have this resource to look and say, we really need to follow up with this person and see if they're ready to do this. Or if we could push this back to July, if that would work for our clients timeline. That's a huge value of having that CRM.

Having that visibility.

Can your CRM be an Excel spreadsheet? Oh, yeah. Because I'm guessing a lot of listeners are like, well, do I have a CRM if it's just in Excel?

Tell us a little bit about the spectrum of tools you could have just to be able to track that information.

I mean, for small firms that don't have a ton of resources, and maybe there's just one person doing business development, and that person is a seller-doer, I think I would probably recommend an Excel spreadsheet because CRMs are expensive.

And if you don't have a ton of data to feed it, I don't think it would be the best spend of your resources. So I think that Excel spreadsheet is a great starting point, and I've seen some wonderful ones.

I've seen large engineering firms use Excel spreadsheets, and I'm like, what are you doing here? You should be in Dell Tech or Co-Central or Salesforce.

So there is a time when you grow out of software, just like we do with any aspect of our business, and there are options for that. I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to CRMs.

In general, I've used all of them that are built for the AEC world and some of them that are not. And I think the functionality is very similar across the board. So, I think any of them can work wonderfully.

How do you, whether it's Excel or whether it's, you know, a very expensive platform that's integrated across your whole, you know, an ERP system, garbage in is garbage out type of thing.

How do you make time, going back to that, how do we make time to get good information in there? How do you help people be accountable to that information and report out any successes or tips for that piece that's critical with a CRM?

Yeah, I think the best tip, depending on the size of your firm, is having a role dedicated to CRM management. That is such a flex in your BD efforts to have that. I see it more and more often.

And I actually had that role at one point in my career. And it was amazing to see how our data grew and what we were able to do in the decision-making power that we had with that information.

Creating processes to meet your seller-doers where they are at is very important. So if you have people that will go into a CRM and enter information, congratulations.

There are not a lot of people that will do that that are also working in the field. That's just they're already in so many programs.

And I understand that it can be frustrating if they don't, but that's just the reality of how it will work and you still need that data. So find another way to get that information, meet them where they're at within reason, send them an email.

I've had it where the email will automatically come from the CRM to the PM. You could set all of that up. I've done that in two different CRMs, Co-Central and Dell Tech.

Both of them have the capabilities to do that so that you get the information you need in a way that makes sense for the seller doers and the boots on the ground.

Yeah. And then you're collecting that data to go back to the eventual case study or how you're going to help visualize and strategize that we are making progress. These things have happened.

So we need the information to be reported out in such a way that we can go back and track it and understand and be pinged and have the tool work as our memory because we cannot remember everything and every conversation we had.

Yeah. At my last firm, we had a very strong team of seller-doers. And what I did as our marketing business development leader is I had weekly meetings scheduled just for 30-minute check-ins.

And it was called CRM check-in. And I would pop on to a meeting with them and share my screen. And we go through their CRM activities and their list.

And I would just update it for them right there over conversation. And sometimes they were at their kid's gymnastics practice, or they were doing something else that it created that time where we were able to talk through that.

And I was able to get the information that I needed to do my job that only they could give me.

That's a good tip. You know, it doesn't necessarily have to happen in the middle of the most busy workday. But making time, blocking it on the calendar, having it repeated, that does create accountability, too.

That you're now like, oh, I'm gonna have to report out to Katy on Wednesdays. I need to, you know, on Tuesday afternoon, get that up to date, up to speed.

So when it's, I think we live and die by our calendars, if it's on there, more likely to happen. And then also that does, having someone else as your partner in that does help resolve that I don't know where to start, right?

That you're going to get momentum as you go. You started with something very small. You attended a session, or an educational event.

You met some people, an industry thing, one thing built to the next thing, and you start creating some momentum behind BD. And eventually, who knows, you may be running the BD strategy for your whole company.

Just depends on if that light bulb goes off like it did for Katy, and she's like, oh my gosh, this is what I love to do. It's my passion. Or if you find other ways to support your company.

We cannot go on for two hours about this topic, but thank you, Katy, for sharing your thoughts and experiences, because you are so passionate about BD, and you do make it feel very approachable to everyone in your network.

And also, at Middle of Six, you've brought some really great ideas and things, so it's good to talk to you today.

Hopefully, this piqued the interest of our listeners too, and they can make it feel, first of all, you do have permission to do BD, and you have permission to let everyone else in your company know that BD is part of their role.

And start with some small ways of making time for it and realizing it's just part of what we do every day to represent our companies and to fill that pipeline.

So we have great jobs, interesting jobs, get to work on the best stuff, and that just keeps the cycle going. Any last words, Katy, before we break?

I would say, first of all, I wish we had two hours to talk about this, because I would love to talk to you about BD strategy, and that could be another episode.

My last words would be, practice makes progress. So we're talking about building relationships and trust over years here. We're not selling products, we're not selling a ShamWow.

So just take your time, be yourself, and just show up regularly.

That's good. That makes the barrier feel much lower for me. I love that.

All right, well, thank you, Katy, for all of those thoughts, and thanks for being on the podcast. Let's get the BD Strategy Podcast scheduled. Kyle, that's on your to-do list.

Thank you so much. Have a great day, everyone. Thanks for listening.

The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six. Our producer is Kyle Davis with digital marketing support by the team at Middle of Six. If you're looking for past episodes or more info, check out our podcast page at middleofsix.com/theshortlist.

You can follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Middle of Six. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Until next time, keep on hustling.

The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.