The Shortlist Episode 69: Creative and Strategic Storytelling

Storytelling isn’t just for novelists—it’s the secret weapon for AEC marketers too! On this episode of The Shortlist, Wendy Simmons teams up with the creative minds of Becky Ellison and Kyle Davis to talk about crafting stories that grab attention and build real connections. They explore what makes a strong story—clear exposition, conflict, and resolution—and how those fundamentals help proposals and social media content truly stand out.

Becky shares her philosophy on creative brainstorming, why it’s important to protect “no bad ideas” and how to edit content with a Marie Kondo mindset: only keep what sparks joy. Becky and Kyle also discuss when and how to integrate graphics and images to enrich your story and engage audiences more authentically. No matter if you’re refining a proposal or crafting a social post, this conversation offers practical tips to make your firm and its people stand out through better, more effective storytelling.

CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 5

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to The Shortlist.

We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.

I'm Wendy Simmons, and today we're talking with Becky Ellison to discuss storytelling.

Hi, Becky.

Hello.

Also, we have Kyle, our producer, who's not officially on this episode, but is going to chime in, so.

Just lurking.

Yes.

He's the lurker, and we really want him to chime in.

We always say, more Kyle.

More Kyle in these.

And we have the mic set up, so it's just happening today.

What?

Why not, right?

It's all happening.

But Becky volunteered to take us on a journey about storytelling.

I think officially we're calling this standout storytelling.

We've talked about different ways of writing and forming your prose, so you can be persuasive and convincing.

But now we're going to take a little bit of a different tilt to this topic.

But before we get in there, Becky, I want you to tell us a little story about this week.

What happened?

Any highlights?

What's going on in the world of footballers or anything else that you want to share?

Oh, man, you know, I prepared for this.

Um, OK.

So yesterday I went to meet up with a friend at a cafe that I can walk to from my apartment.

I live in Los Angeles.

It's a very exciting place to live because every block is a totally different neighborhood.

And I was out walking alone by myself with my headphones on, as I always do.

And they're big headphones to signal to others that I'm not up for a chat.

However, I was accosted by a shirtless man on the sidewalk who looked a little bit like circa 1995 Bradley Noel lead singer of Sublime.

It wasn't him because sadly he's no longer with us, but RIP.

I do not know what this gentleman said to me because as I mentioned previously, my headphones were on and the music was going, but his expressions and body language were very intense, very confrontational.

I myself am not good with confrontation.

And I noticed in the moment that muscle memory kicked in.

My parents are New Yorkers and they taught me well.

My first city experience as a child was going to New York City and being told, do not look at anyone, do not look at anything, don't look up.

The worst thing you can do in a city is let anyone know that they have gotten your attention.

So it all kicked in.

In the moment, I took a deep breath.

I listened to my music.

I walked past Bradley, just kept on going.

I'll never know what that man wanted or needed or was trying to convey to me.

He might have been a time traveler with important information about my future.

He might have been trying to rob me.

He might have just been letting me know that my hair looked fabulous and, you know, I will never know.

And it's just those little unknown mystery encounters that give life its spice.

So I hope he's doing well, and I hope he was wearing sunscreen because, wow, it's, you know, yeah, it's hot here.

It's intense.

So you didn't just say, hey, I'm walking here?

I did not know.

Yeah.

But you don't engage.

Never.

I mean, that's like, unless you're ready for a fight, which, like, I mean.

But yeah, what if he was like, the Mets win the World Series in 2028?

Yeah.

Imagine the cash you could make on the futures market.

That's true.

I know.

I'll never know.

I kind of I almost wish I could track him down and be like, what were you trying to tell me?

But I have a feeling it's not going to be a hot tip for the future.

I feel like that wasn't going to be what he was trying to let me know.

Not a 2024 Marty McFly situation.

No, no, no puffer vest.

No, like none of that kind of life preserver.

Yeah, he didn't look earnest and encouraging.

The expression wasn't...

Well, I'm sure hanging out in LA, there are countless stories, right?

Countless stories all around you.

And that's why they call it the City of Angels.

Could have been an angel, we don't know.

Oh, touched by an angel.

Well, that was a great story.

Thanks for sharing a little bit about...

Was it?

Absolutely.

That was way better than, I'm sure, anything I would have come up with and put on the spot.

Tell me a story from this week.

I know.

I was sitting here trying to think of a story and now I don't even have to do it.

It's awesome.

Well, storytelling is such a huge part of our job as marketers, whether it's like that short format in social media or the shortest format, which would be writing a headline or a caption.

Sometimes we get more space to tell stories, but we're doing it all the time, whether we know it or not, or maybe just entertaining our co-workers during a team meeting or something.

It's an important part.

Which is what I live for.

Give me all the team meetings and all the stories.

That's awesome.

And maybe you think you're a super strong storyteller or something that you want to work on.

We're going to pick Becky's brain today and get some tips and we've got Kyle here too.

So I'm sure he'll chime in.

I was doing a little bit of research.

We used to have the facts in the podcast, which we sort of have sunsetted for season four.

But I couldn't help myself just looking up some things about, you know, marketing books, about storytelling.

There's so many, so many.

So this is not a marketing book on storytelling.

If you want those, go ahead and buy them or get the audio version, which I actually think is better when you're talking about stories.

But there's tons, tons to read there in the world.

We're just going to be kind of a little bit more punchy.

And I wanted to talk about attention spans.

I did a little Googling.

I did look at some studies.

They were super boring.

There was nothing punchy to share in storytelling.

But let me just say, I did find the average human attention span is 8.25 seconds.

Doesn't really surprise me.

Nice.

And I don't know how they measured this.

I'm sure there's some way to do it.

But the average attention span of a goldfish is 9 seconds.

So we're losing in that area, shorter than a goldfish.

Ted Lasso was wrong.

Oh, what was his?

Well, his thing was about memory, not attention spans.

Yeah.

Maybe not.

Right.

That's right.

You want to have the memory of a human.

No, you want to have the memory of a goldfish and the attention span of a goldfish.

And the attention span of a goldfish.

Just be a goldfish.

Be a goldfish.

Yeah.

Well, attention spans are getting shorter and shorter as we are sucked into our phones and being distracted by whatever 300,000 marketing messages a day.

That's not the right number actually, but it's a ton, right?

We're just being bombarded.

Don't blame us.

It's not our fault.

No.

I have not read the book by Seth Godin.

All Marketers Are Liars, The Power of Telling Authentic Stories in a Low Trust World.

But when I saw that, I don't know how I missed that on my radar, but I'm like, I must get that book.

Isn't that interesting?

All Marketers Are Liars.

It's catchy.

That's a great title.

So let's get into it.

Let's talk a little bit about storytelling, how we use it as starting off with some basic fundamental stuff.

What are the standard components of a good story?

So yeah, starting from the fundamentals, traditionally a story is comprised of exposition, conflict and resolution.

In simpler terms, what's the deal?

What's going on?

What's the problem?

And how does it end?

Walter White is a teacher who gets diagnosed with cancer, can't pay for his treatments, starts cooking meth, sells a lot of meth, runs into some problems.

Yeah, Mr.

White.

Yes, science.

And then I don't want to spoil the ending for anyone who hasn't seen it, but obviously that's the structure of Breaking Bad.

So every time we watch a show or read a book or tell somebody something that happened, you're telling a story.

Stories can be so many things.

And that structure that sort of inherently exists can change pretty wildly depending on what kind of story you're telling.

So the way we're going to kind of talk about storytelling today refers to both that narrative concept and the idea of conveying a robust picture that really shows who and what you are in your marketing work.

So, for example, you can produce a proposal that really gives the reader a well-rounded impression of like, what is your company about?

What would you be like to work with?

How well do you understand a client?

What do you bring to the table that like none of the other firms do?

Your social media, does it have a voice?

Can your viewers immediately recognize your content?

Are they like invested in what you have to say because you've shown where you're coming from, what you want, how you're striving to get there.

That's all storytelling, and there's ways to make that authentic, which is the best way to stand up.

Awesome.

That was a really good overview, and I like how you brought it into 2025 language there, and make it a little bit easier to understand that process instead of just what we learned in high school creative writing classes.

What do you do to brainstorm your story ideas?

I'm sure as a creative person is just always dreaming up ideas.

There's a lot that I have to work through.

What's your process?

You know, my background is in writing and lots of creative work, so I've been brainstorming for a long time.

Brainstorming is absolutely one of my favorite things about doing creative work.

Brainstorming is a sacred thing.

It must be protected at all costs if you want to stand out in a creative field.

The number one rule of brainstorming is there are no bad ideas.

That's easy to say, but it's a bold statement.

And protecting the sanctity of that ideal is maybe the most important thing that a creative leader can do for their team.

As one of my inspirations, Ted Lasso said, you don't want to bring an umbrella to a brainstorm, which means that everything that is suggested gets considered.

No matter how weird it is, no matter how impossible or insane it sounds, you do that because those impossible or wacky ideas can often lead to the right solution.

I mean, that's a tad aggressive, you know, but hey, I shouldn't bring an umbrella to a brainstorm, so I appreciate you getting the ball rolling, Nate.

Even if the first draft is completely not feasible, you know, like I'm someone who really likes to go way outside the box in the brainstorming phase, as you know, you know, doing creative work, like you can always rein it in, but you can't rein it out.

You know what I mean?

If that makes sense.

So like, I would say you get as many voices together as is appropriate.

You know, you don't want too many people, but you want to get a good, well-rounded set of points of view.

You let them know that they are 100% safe to come up with ideas and, you know, let them know about, you know, not bringing the umbrella to the brainstorm and all that.

So they're safe to like throw out anything and they won't be judged.

And then you just sort of write down everything that's said and you pare down from there.

So it's often not just one idea that gets chosen and goes forward.

It's bits and pieces from the team, you know, and that's exactly what you want.

So like when you get to the the editing phase, you want to do the Marie Kondo method, you know, you only keep what sparks joy.

So every piece of content that you produce should serve a purpose and have value.

If you if you've got content that's not really addressing anything or making a great point or like captivating your reader, cut it and set yourself free.

You want everything to have a job, everything to have some some meaning to it.

So you start you start big and then you funnel down.

But keep keep the bad ideas, because you never know when like something might end up being being a good one eventually.

So when you're thinking of like thank you for the opportunity for us to submit our qualifications, that goes into the keep pile or is that going into the donate box or the trash?

Oh, you know, that is that is said a lot.

I've seen that in cover letters a lot.

I think to the point where people reading them don't even look at that line.

It's just like it could be just texture on the paper for all they know.

So I would, yeah, definitely, like the cover letter, you have like half a second to capture them.

I know Wendy was quoting studies, but like colloquially, I think you've got such a split second to get somebody's attention on that cover letter.

You have got to open with something that just like knocks them off their chair or like, I promise you they're not gonna read it.

So we can brainstorm that, I think, all day long to come up with something engaging.

Well, they might still read it, but they'll be bored and have this opinion that everything else is gonna be real boring.

And maybe we've poured our heart and soul into the storytelling and the proposal, but if you don't start at the beginning, you lose them.

Yep.

I was gonna ask, Becky, you mentioned that the brainstorming, getting people together, can you brainstorm by yourself?

Absolutely.

What does that feel like?

Yeah, it's probably even safer because you don't have that kind of like secret, deep down fear that someone's judging you.

I mean, and I hope you're not judging yourself.

Brainstorming can unlock a lot of things if you feel stuck, you don't quite know where you're going with something, you can't think, how should I say this?

Find a place where you can be alone and say things out loud.

That can be really helpful if you hear it said.

Pace around your house or apartment and talk to yourself.

That can be helpful.

Write things down.

Try to write with an actual paper and pen if you can, if those still exist, because that sort of kinetic memory can make you feel like you're doing something, and you feel like you have a little bit of power over what you're doing.

And then try experiments, especially if you're a designer, like me, if you have ideas for creative things, actually make them.

You know, like I, my coworker, Lauren Jay, and the other senior creative strategist, and I have been collaborating a lot lately on design projects.

And we've been kind of show and telling our workspaces when we're working on like logo design or whatever.

And both of us have this, if you look into the first files that we work on a project with, it's just, there's a million artboards.

There's like experiments all over the place.

It's just like it covers the entire screen.

And we both work that way and it makes sense to us.

And I think that's good because you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

And yeah, I think the more you can kind of get in touch with yourself and know, like, I know about how long this is going to take and like, I know whether something's, you learn to trust yourself by doing that.

Practice that.

Practice that muscle or exercise that muscle so you can feel better in that position.

You're not just staring at the blank page, which I think is what happens with a lot of storytellers, right?

Kyle, you've had to write a ton and like mission, vision, values work where you're like, okay, here we go.

I'm by myself.

Do you have any tips?

It doesn't have to be really just that kind of work, but that to me feels like such high pressure storytelling.

Yeah, when it comes to that sort of brand specific, company specific writing, I definitely lean a ton on the discovery, which is in a way, in a sense, is very much a group brainstorm with a little bit more structure.

But finding those bits and pieces of language from the discovery that we always say like stand out or sing or zing or like the golden nuggets or whatever, it's kind of the reason why we like to do that group brainstorm session because when you hear something real and authentic about a company, it really resonates.

It's really easy in the moment to be taking your notes and to bold that phrase or to quote someone directly and put it in a highlight because there's just an energy to it that is different from boilerplate or the kind of the rote things we say all the time.

So, definitely leaning on that and the things that kind of stand out to you as more than just the status quo and then just very similarly to what Becky said, just allowing yourself the space to like write out a good phrase or two that sounds right.

It doesn't even necessarily have to go into a specific bucket.

It doesn't have to match A to A to a certain value.

But once you start getting those things on to paper, then you can almost start moving them around the page and say, oh, this connects here.

And this would make more sense in the mission area.

Or that's actually not even related to mission vision values, but it is like a potent piece of writing that I'm going to use in the future.

Just allowing yourself that space to explore and move things around and not be set in your ways.

Never throw anything away.

No deleting.

You can save as and have a new version or add another pasteboard.

But you went through that work and you don't know when you're going to come back.

Even in a couple of months, you're like, all right, let's see here.

What now sparks a little more joy than we thought the first time around, and we need to bring back around.

One method I like is just to hammer something into the ground and see what comes out of it.

Safety is our highest priority.

Safety is our greatest priority.

The greatest thing is safety.

Man, safety, I sure do love safety so much.

Have you ever heard of this safety thing?

And just go like 20 of those, and then maybe there's one in there that works, or maybe there's a combination of number two and number 17 that turns into the actual phrase or statement or value or whatever it might be.

Love that.

Can I do a quick sidebar on brainstorming that I've shared with both of you before we went to our last retreat, because we had a lot of brainstorming activities there.

And I just want to share for our listeners, because it came out of Paul Ostenkopf's, hopefully I'm saying his last name right, his book, The Humor Habit.

And he, I don't have the numbers, I wasn't prepared, but as we are going down this track of brainstorming, he said that there was a study done where groups of people were asked to, one group was asked to tell an embarrassing story about their, I think it was about their work life, but a story from their past, and then went into a brainstorming session.

And the group who didn't do that, that just went into the brainstorming session, they produced like 23% fewer creative ideas or just ideas content on the wall in that brainstorming.

So it gets to that point where we were saying that really early on, Becky, where there's no bad ideas, you don't be hard on yourself, put it out there.

And I think Paul's point was let's embrace humor.

And if you can acknowledge something that was embarrassing or that was challenging, then you're more comfortable putting out the idea.

Because how bad can it be?

I already told them that, I don't know, I forgot to wear the right color or matching shoes to work or something random like that.

I've already uncovered that part.

So my brainstorming can be more creative.

So if you're working with some people on that, you know.

And that's a good tip.

Unlock that vulnerability.

And then more of that stuff could flow.

Because it can be intimidating or you can feel a little self-conscious to actually take a big swing, especially in the writing that we do, where it's so safe and easy to write a story or a case study that kind of just follows the pattern that we're all comfortable with.

And there's no risk, but there's...

And that feels great because it's safe and it's comfortable, but there's also less of a reward.

So yeah, unlocking that vulnerability to say, hey, what if we did put a real zinger of a headline in here?

What if we did go beyond the typical case study and tell like a really personal story right here?

Or dive deep into the history of the company or the personalities that make it up, just giving yourself the permission to go that next layer deeper.

Yeah, I think especially in this industry, as marketers, we're often coming from backgrounds that have nothing to do with construction, architecture, engineering.

And you, at least I certainly felt when I was working in house, way out of my depth, I still don't know anything about construction, but like, I always felt like I was the least, you know, knowledgeable person in the room, whatever I was working on, because I didn't fully understand what I was talking about.

But I think with something like this, you know, I do feel very confident that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to engaging writing, I will say that.

So maybe I don't know, you know, everything about construction, but it gives me that confidence to kind of say, look, trust me here, just hear me out, you know?

And I think as marketers, I hope that each and every one of you can kind of say, okay, well, you know, maybe I don't know anything about engineering or whatever, but like, I do know about creative writing, I do know about telling a story, and that gives you kind of the confidence to present something.

And just take that risk because the person you're talking to, they've been doing engineering, they've been doing construction or whatever, like they're going to see you as the expert in what you do.

So take that risk to say, hey, we should try this, you know, try it out, you know?

And if they're rude about it and shoot you down, then like, that's their problem.

I mean, that would be totally like uncalled for.

But I encourage you to take that risk and believe in your abilities.

Yeah, you are being encouraged by Becky, for sure.

And I want to skip ahead a little bit, because on this, we were giving some examples that were quirky and kind of cutesy or humorous or bringing humor into something that might be more serious.

But, and Becky, I'm sure you've been faced with this many times where that's not the right fit for the project or the client or the brand personality or however you want to say it.

So do you have any suggestions on how you are still creative and get good storytelling components when it can't go to where maybe you would naturally want to go?

Yeah, I think with storytelling, with trying to capture your audience, you want to, you have to convey the main idea of the content quickly.

You also want to hook them so they want to read more.

The easiest and most obvious way to do that is through humor.

Because with social media being 90% of our lives now, people have become trained to immediately evaluate everything they see.

Do I like this?

Yes.

Heart?

No.

Swipe.

I don't know how it works, but we're presented with so much content that is packaged as entertainment that most people are just sort of used to this now.

You're putting out these fun things.

People are laughing, this is content I want.

And then you're sneaking in the information with those things.

It's very effective.

But yeah, sometimes you do have brands or projects or whatever it is you're working on that you just, you can't be wacky and cutesy and quirky all the time.

So you can use tasteful humor in just about every situation I would advocate.

However, if you're not incredibly confident that you can strike that right balance of fun and credibility, let's go back to the root of all of this, which is telling a story.

So I think another tool in your toolbox is to make a big, bold, truthful statement.

Something that's going to make the reader stop and say, what?

Surely that can't be true.

Well, and then you show them through examples, through photos, personal quotes, whatever you have to create the full picture of exactly, how did we make this impossible thing happen?

How do we stand out?

You have to be immodest.

You have to be simple and you have to boast.

I can't tell you how many times people will say something like, well, we don't want to seem like we're bragging or whatever, but yes, you do.

The reader or the viewer is flipping or scrolling through so much noise.

You have to take a big step forward to stand out.

So make sure it's truthful.

You're not going to make something up, but don't mince words.

You know what I mean?

For example, which story do you want to read more about?

We helped to minimize the cost on an education project and worked hard to help ensure that the occupancy goal was met.

Or how we saved this school $1.5 million and cut the ribbon in time for the first soccer practice of the season.

The second one.

Yeah.

You don't have to use a lot of quirky, wacky stuff to paint a vivid picture.

You want to get right to the point.

Don't minimize what you did.

Use specifics.

How much money did you save them?

Talk about the human impact.

This caption that we use as an example, it creates the image in the reader's mind of the kids, all excited for their new field that you built or whatever.

Anytime you can make it about people, you're humanizing your story and you're showing the impact of what you do.

Yeah.

I would think that especially if you're proposing on a project or you are marketing your services to a prospective client, they want you to be awesome at what you do, right?

They're not like, oh, I really hope they're super modest and they just like play it safe.

And then like, that's the person I'm going to hire.

They want you to be rad and they want to go, yeah, this is our place.

These are our people.

We're going to hire them.

So I would agree.

Don't be afraid of screaming it or shouting it from the rooftops a little bit if you can back it up.

What happens when you're talking to those subject matter experts and trying to get those details?

I mean, it's one thing to find a dollar figure on a project that's easier, but what about just teasing out those success stories?

But they say, well, you know, we just did the same old, same old.

It's just another day on the job site.

They've got nothing for you.

Do you have any tips for getting it out of them, getting the good stuff?

What I would do is to literally just ask them.

If you ask the superintendent on the job or whatever, like, what is this?

How does this work?

How did you do that?

You had robots installing windows?

What?

How does that work?

Was that weird?

Did you know how that worked when you had to do it?

Just converse with them as if you don't know what the heck was going on, and you probably don't.

And they will be so happy to tell you about what they do, about why was that exciting?

Why?

How to do?

What happened on the job site?

Was there any drama?

Did anybody, were there arguments?

Or like, you don't have to write all of those things, but that can often get them going where they're just sort of, they feel less of the pressure that they're writing for a response, but they're just talking to a person.

So the more you can just kind of like get that sort of, tell me, you know, and then you can turn that into something external.

You can even sneak that in there if you want, you know, like sneak the vegetables in there, just be like, hey, I'm just curious.

Can you tell me?

I don't understand this.

Secretly knowing that you're taking notes to like turn that into a case study.

I mean, I can...

Since you are a graphics focused person, Becky, let's pair your storytelling expertise with graphics and how those support each other.

And do you have any examples of when it helped, the graphics helped take the story to the next level?

Oh yeah, especially when it comes to proposals, anything you can say with a graphic, as long as it answers the question, you should.

In terms of storytelling, graphics, images, photos, video, all these things are becoming much more important in recent years as the world shifts away from written information and even more towards multimedia.

So you don't want to be afraid to show multiple photos and label them like you're doing a scrapbook or telling someone about your awesome trip to Europe or whatever.

There's a lot of show and tell that can be done that conveys information without writing a bazillion words.

Like you again want to go back to how would I say this to a friend?

Here's that superintendent showing the field crew how the robot installer puts up the windows.

Here's the safety week chili cook-off.

You show some personality through images and then you can use the written info to just stick to the facts.

If you can have an impactful photo that shows people doing something unusual or having fun, that's going to be worth a lot more than just yet another photo of a job site with no people on it.

You want to combine written information and images to present a rich experience to your audience.

Because presenting that experience is another way to subconsciously let them know that you care about them, that you're very prepared, that they're in safe hands, everything's under control, you take pride in your presentation, and those are all subliminal messages that get into the reader and they will appreciate what you have to say.

Then in terms of social media or digital campaigns, it's mercifully much more straightforward than integrating them into something like a proposal.

Social media has obviously become very heavily biased in favor of images and media.

The great news is the algorithm favors content that hasn't been produced to death.

So while you don't want to post absolute garbage photos and videos, you'll see a better reach if your content is organic, meaning it looks like it was made by a person, a good clear photo of your team at the event.

Maybe mention a fun inside joke from the day.

Maybe you tack on a picture of like, here's Kyle volunteering to hold up the flip chart when the projector stopped working, hashtag resilient or whatever.

Give people a peek into the personality of your team.

Show them the highlights of the reality show of your brand.

Give people a peek into the everyday.

Because you don't want every photo to just be like five people standing in a line smiling.

Show some action.

Give people the behind the scenes scoop.

That's what makes them feel like they know you, which makes them trust you and they want to tune in for more.

Yeah.

When you said show and tell, I immediately heard Kyle right behind in so many meetings saying, show, don't tell.

He said that in so many website meetings.

I feel like that falls very nicely into the writing 101, although it kind of sounds the opposite, but you want to, even if you're not using a visual, you still want your verbiage or your writing or your storytelling to show rather than tell.

Even through artful use of words and writing, it should still show, not tell because exposition is boring.

That's fair.

Mic drop.

So Wendy, what tips do you have for storytelling?

Well, you all have provided a lot of great tips, so I definitely agree with that direction.

Here's what I say in proposal writing and interview coaching nonstop.

It's just, I feel like it is very true, so I'll say it again here, is that we need to end with why it's important to the client, why does this matter?

And even in a very short form, there's either a bit of a call to action, or it's why this matters to me, and it gets us out of the mindset of, we did this great thing and here's what we did, but why?

It's a small little connection that needs to be made.

Just make it easy on the reader to understand, oh, this is going to be something we can implement, and it's going to be faster, cheaper, stronger, better, whatever that is, basic stuff.

And with that, and then it feels like your story is just stronger.

It makes that impact.

So that's my number one tip, I think.

It's a little boring.

But very accurate and true.

Just if you ask yourself that throughout the process, so what, so why does this matter?

If you're able to answer that question and make adjustments based on the answer, then I think you're going to be in pretty darn good shape.

And we've probably all had the experience of listening to someone speak and you're engaged, and it's interesting, but if they don't end strong, it can be hard as the listener to make that connection and have it stick in your head as well.

So especially in the spoken storytelling, ending with that, I think, is a key to making sure that your point gets brought across really properly.

That's a great point.

And I think people may be listening to this thinking in terms of interviews, maybe meeting with clients and wanting to tell a story in that way.

So you are having an opportunity to speak and tell a story.

One of the most important things you can do in spoken storytelling is believe in what you're saying and project confidence, even if you're not.

Because when you're watching someone speak, as Kyle said, you want them to do well.

You want this to be the best story you've ever heard.

You're rooting for them.

Everyone in that room, when you're talking, is hoping that you will be so interesting to listen to, what you say is going to be great.

They don't want to be like, oh, I don't know, I don't know.

They want it to be just out of the park.

So they're already on your side when you open your mouth.

They want you to nail the interview, get hired, make the decision super easy for everybody.

Yes, they do.

And be rad, as Kyle said.

Be rad.

Be rad.

You want them to say, oh, our search is over.

How we feel so much relief to have this taken care of.

Yep, they want to go to lunch.

They're done.

They don't want to hear more people running their mouths.

They want you to be the one.

So going in with that confidence, if you can tell us your story with that confidence, they feel safe.

Because when someone who is speaking or performing or whatever is nervous, it makes the audience feel nervous and they don't want to feel nervous.

So there's a little bit of fake it till you make it going on there.

But yeah, it's important to make the audience feel safe because they will go along with you.

They want you to be great.

Oh, yeah, they are definitely supporting the person who's up there with the spotlight on them.

I think you have to look for the people who are nodding their head and giving them those positive signs so that you can embrace that confidence.

And once you get over the first little bit, much, much easier from there on out.

Another tip, and maybe this is actually a golden rule, certainly is in marketing, is know your audience.

So that helps with creating content that's funny, engaging, is going to catch their attention when you're speaking, making sure you understand what's their level of understanding and interest in this topic.

And it's going to make your storytelling much more resonant when you give it a second and really think about who you're speaking with.

We do often, show of hands, raise your hand if you have experienced this or if this is your role, just to confirm so we can see, like, who are we really talking to here?

And so that's some more tips for story time that will last beyond when you're like the proposals gone or you're out of the room, that sort of thing.

Some other tips are when you're writing, telling a story in things like proposals, you want to have little headlines, callouts, sub headers, and that's your opportunity to really put out something engaging and interesting.

That's where you put your bold statement or your funny thing.

You put that clever stuff up front and it makes them want to read on.

So you want to take that first opportunity, put it in big, huge words.

Here's what we did, or here's the clever thing, and then that will hook people to keep going.

Now, what do you say?

Okay, you start with looking at the client.

What do they say?

What's the terminology they use?

What are their slogans and taglines?

What are they talking about on their social media?

What do they care about?

What's their campaign for this year?

Maybe use those words and shape that into something that resonates with the project you're trying to sell.

Use words that they recognize.

That's always going to be good.

How can you make something funny?

That's a million-dollar question.

If we all knew how to be funny, we'd all be very rich comedians.

But what you can do is start with what you think is funny, because if you don't find it funny or clever or engaging, no one else will.

So take that pressure off yourself and think, is this amusing to me?

If so, give it a shot.

See if it resonates with anyone else.

It doesn't have to be the most clever, hilarious thing ever, but if you just give them a taste that we're interesting people, we have a sense of humor, just a taste, it's going to make them want to hear more.

You want to write like you're talking to a friend.

This is, nobody reads magazines anymore, so it's a lost art, but that's what they used to do.

You'd write just like you were telling a friend about whatever it is, even if it's technical construction stuff.

Just start there.

Start like you're writing to your friend.

You can always charge it up if you need to, but just think, does this make sense to me?

Am I interested?

Do I want to hear more of this?

And if not, start over.

Yeah, if you don't like it, if it's not working for you, that's the time to start again.

But don't delete anything.

We're going to move it off to the side because you don't know when you're going to need to come back and say, wait a second, where there was a gem in there was just hidden behind some jargon.

Get rid of that.

Well, we could keep throwing out tips for days, but I think this was a great starting point on the story telling, especially in the shorter format, thinking of punchy headlines and attention grabbing content for social media or wherever it might show up.

We ranged all over the place here today.

So, Becky, Kyle, any last words before we wrap up?

Rad?

Be like the goldfish.

Yeah, be the goldfish.

Football is life.

Football is life, yeah.

Watch Ted Lasso, honestly, like truly on the theme of story telling.

If you want to watch a fantastic story unfold over three seasons, Ted Lasso on Apple TV is a fantastic, fantastic show that is impeccably written.

The acting is incredible, but also it's a heck of a story.

They knew exactly where they were going.

Sorry, I'm getting way into into the weeds here.

But like when they started creating this show, they had a plan for all three seasons.

They knew this is what we're doing.

Season one, season two, season three.

We're going to wrap it up like this.

I have heard rumors that there's going to be a season four.

But basically with the story, they thought, you know, like we're going to tell this story in season one and build on it in season two, season three.

And every time you go through it, you're absolutely engaged and you can see little bits and pieces of what's coming.

There's so much foreshadowing.

That's another element of storytelling.

Can't recommend it enough, especially if you if you work in any job that requires you to work on a team of people.

It's very inspiring and kindhearted.

The dart scene is one of the best scenes ever.

Best scenes of television ever.

Ever.

Yep.

How many times have you watched all three seasons all the way through?

Many times.

Many times.

It's your office.

It's just on constantly.

It's the comfort show.

Keep watching it all the way through.

And I keep finding little details to be excited about every time.

All right.

Well, now we all have our homework assignment.

Becky says.

And practice your storytelling practice, your brainstorming practice, being vulnerable and being funny.

And see what comes out of that.

You'll probably have a lot more fun doing your job if you try some of those things.

So thanks you both for sharing and we'll see you on the next episode.

Thank you.

This is fun.

Thanks.

The end.

Or is it dot dot dot?

So Rupert, y'all take your darts over here pretty seriously, huh?

This and what's the billiard game y'all do that sounds like a brand of cookies?

Snooker?

That's it.

That's the one.

Yeah, boy, I'd love to curl up on a couch under a weighted blanket.

Watch You've Got Mail and devour a box of Snookers.

The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six.

Our producer is Kyle Davis with digital marketing support by the team at Middle of Six.

If you're looking for past episodes or more info, check out our podcast page at middleofsix.com/theshortlist.

You can follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Middle of Six.

Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

Until next time, keep on hustling.

Bye.

Go and be free.

The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.