
While it’s difficult to highlight many positive outcomes of the COVID-19 pandemic, it did provide an opportunity for open conversations around community and personal health. As it became necessary to provide flexibility to balance work and home commitments, we were also able to shed light on long-standing workplace challenges in our industry.
For many, the sudden switch from in-person to virtual work environments prompted thoughtful consideration of the impact on team dynamics, workload, burnout, and mental health. In episode 42 of The Shortlist, Wendy Simmons and Becky Ellison candidly share their own struggles working in AEC marketing and discuss positive ways to accommodate and support the unique needs of every team member.
CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 6
Podcast Transcript
Welcome to The Shortlist.
We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.
I'm your host, Wendy Simmons, and each episode, I'll be joined by one of my team members from Middle of Six to answer your questions.
Today, we're talking with Becky Ellison, and we're gonna address burnout and mental health.
That is a big, big topic.
Becky, thank you so much for suggesting this conversation and for being here, for being part of it.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for doing this topic.
It's important to me, and I think to a lot of people.
Yeah, good.
Well, I'm really glad you brought it up, and I don't know exactly where this conversation's gonna go.
There's a lot of conversations about burnout for AEC marketers or just people in the industry.
Also, you know, pairing that with mental health awareness.
There's a lot there.
Becky and I are not doctors.
I'm nervous about what we're gonna say, but we're just gonna be ourselves.
We're gonna be real humans who are working as coworkers, and we have a relationship.
Let's see how this goes.
I'm very curious, but I just wanna say for our listeners, we don't claim, we don't have all the solutions.
We're just here to be support.
We care about you.
We care about those marketers.
Maybe there's some insights I can share for principals out there who are kind of running teams and supporting them.
So I don't know.
With that big disclaimer out there, Becky, let's start us off.
Tell me why you thought this would be important to share on the podcast.
Well, I think that we, as a society, are just starting to talk about mental health in an open way, well-being, things like self-care.
These are all words that have just entered the conversation globally in recent years.
I think with the pandemic that's been going on, a lot of people have been taking a look at their lives, at their mental health, at their well-being.
And I think that especially in our industry, in the AEC industry, which is such a high pressure, high stress, deadline driven, intense, intense industry, that can really come together to create a lot of stress and triggers for various issues that people might be dealing with.
And I think that the more we can talk about our mental health and well-being, things like burnout, stress, that sort of thing, that's really the only way that it's ever going to get better.
Right.
Yeah.
Start talking about it and making it more normal to be ourselves and to not have some façade that we've got it all under control.
You mentioned the pandemic and teeing that up, and I'm just reflecting back and remembering being in the pandemic and having a feeling of like, well, this is terrible.
This is terrible.
But I see some good things coming out of it.
Like being able to tell your team that you're sick.
I mean, there was like, it was a mandate.
You could not be around people.
You were quarantined for 10 days in the beginning, right?
I think we all have experiences of going to work when we were sick and like powering through and feeling like that was actually a badge of honor, right?
So that's not to the mental health state at that point, but I'm just saying that was a piece of the pandemic where we even started to care about ourselves and then have a little bit of understanding whether it was forced on us or just because we got to practice it a bunch, realizing that people can't be there at their best 100 percent of the time like we had expected for years and years.
That's very true.
I think with deadlines, the way that we work with, you know, proposals and things like that as AEC marketers, a lot of the time there are few or no people in your company who can back you up if you are sick.
So we have all, I think, had that experience of being, I'll say very sick and having to work regardless in order to meet the deadline.
And we just had to kind of, yeah, take a big look at ourselves over the last couple of years and say, is this sustainable?
Is this working?
Is this fair?
What is the outcome here and how long can this go on, you know?
I think it's wonderful to kind of see the things that have been put in place since the pandemic started.
Things like working remotely, something we do at Middle of Six, which I think is fantastic.
That and being able, you know, kind of having the Zoom call, the Teams meeting, the online video chats become just a natural normal thing that everybody does.
Not only is that fantastic for preventing burnout and enabling people to take charge of their own sort of self-care and whatever else, but it enables people who have disabilities and maybe mental illness to participate in society in a way that they really couldn't be for it.
Because if you weren't able to go out and go do the events in person, now it's to the point where you, not everywhere, I don't want to say every place has gotten to this point, but a lot of the times it's just been massive for inclusion, which is a wonderful thing.
Yeah.
It's great that we all had this opportunity to be forced into it.
And then as a huge experiment in society, figuring out what works and realizing, I'm just going to go out there and live and say, realizing that everyone needs something different.
It's like the hybrid is like the ultimate hybrid.
Some people need to be in the office.
They need that in-person face-to-face connection.
They need freedom from distractions of their home life.
They need that commuting time that's like a mental break or almost like meditative time to get set for their day and then to decompress.
I mean, for some people that is the number one.
And then on the other end of the spectrum, is having access to everyone, but in a different way with a little bit of, you know, like barrier in between instead of being there in person.
So, I don't know, that's my takeaway from having those options is realizing that, Becky, you need something.
Wendy, I need something.
You know, every human needs something.
And how do you be aware of that?
And then, and help them get what they need.
Yeah, and that wasn't being asked before.
We were all just sort of put in a situation, and you could either deal with it or not.
And those of us who have struggled with things like burnout and stress and, you know, mental health concerns, physical health concerns, people who have children, there's so many things that no one was discussing because it was just assumed.
You get up, you drive into work, you work in an office, you come home.
But like, I can't tell you how many times I've, you know, gotten sick, or had to deal with something that came up, and I'm just 40 minutes away from my house, and, you know, another building with people that I sort of know, you know, like, that's such a stressful environment to be in.
So that sort of, yeah, that being able to ask the question, what do you need?
What flexibility can be offered so that people can do their best work, but also kind of live their best life at the same time?
That is a great outcome from this terribly dark time.
Well, we're sort of squishing to very complicated topics that definitely overlap, but also have their own unique areas.
So burnout and mental health.
Maybe let's focus a little bit on mental health first because it feels like we've just discussed how the pandemic illuminated everyone's different position, where they are and what their needs are.
And then as we go through this podcast, we could talk more specifically about how the AEC marketer experiences burnout and how we can kind of narrow the conversation in that way.
So, Becky, when you're talking about mental health, can you define that a little bit more for our listeners?
I feel like you really wanted to have this as part of our conversation today and not just burnout.
Yeah, I think it's important that we all talk about our mental health because, again, not talking about it has not been serving us well, I think, for most of humanity.
And I'm really glad that it's starting to come up in things like TV shows.
It's coming up in the news.
People are being open on social media about things like that.
I have great hopes for the next generations coming up, that they're being much more open about it.
But in terms of mental health, there are all kinds of people in a workplace.
There are some people who have diagnosed mental illnesses, probably a lot more people than we think.
There are things like depression, anxiety, PTSD.
I mean, postpartum depression.
There are so many things that are so, so, so common.
I've said names of conditions that I have, Wendy.
I don't want to tell you which ones.
But I mean, it's a part of life, and you can't always tell.
It's not something you can assume just by looking at someone's work habits or their personality.
And it's because we've sort of been trained to not be forthcoming about this.
We've been told whatever you do, don't talk about this at work.
You'll be seen as weak.
You'll be seen as lazy, crazy, whatever.
But I'm finding more and more that just, I can't tell you how many times I've had a conversation with a workmate who said, Oh yeah, I've been in therapy.
Absolutely.
I'm taking antidepressants.
I know it's happening.
And I think the more that we can come clean about that, as scary as that might be, the more you give the people you work with and your supervisors and employers a chance to understand maybe why you might be having challenges.
Because the struggle there is that, yes, it can be scary to talk about mental illness or whatever that you're experiencing.
But if you don't, then those other people may make their own assumptions, which could certainly be worse than whatever it is that you're going through.
So, and everybody has to decide for themselves how forthcoming they want to be.
But I think the more that we all, whether diagnosed with something or not, talk about how we're feeling, our stress levels, any number of mental health topics in order to encourage everyone to feel like they can participate safely in that conversation.
And are you feeling like there is less stigma?
And is it about the seat that you're sitting in right now, literally?
Or do you think this is more of a across the US and North America, there feels like it's better for people?
What do you think?
I am encouraged.
I do feel like there is becoming less of a stigma.
It is still very much there.
But as many things that are unique to the AEC industry, I think that stigma around mental health is one of those old, hanging on things, right up there with long printed documents that we put together in InDesign.
I mean, no other industry is doing that anymore.
So we also have this industry that is often male dominated.
It's often a badge of honor to be tough, to be able to do anything.
We can get anything done.
We'll get it done faster, bigger, better.
That has been the attitude.
And that does trickle down to everybody even in the office doing the sort of administrative side of the work in this industry.
And so the more you have that kind of like, keep your mouth shut and buck up and do it, that general attitude can be detrimental to those of us who are struggling.
And yes, that does include those people in the field with the hammers and saws and the hard hats who are out there every day.
That includes superintendents.
That includes safety, personal, everybody.
So I mean, the more I think we begin to talk about these things, we kind of take charge of our own industry.
We can show that there is a lot of strength and toughness and being able to get stuff done that comes from that camaraderie that you build by being able to be open with each other.
It's just another way of looking at it.
Yeah, so many good points you made there.
Wasn't top of mind for me to think about the safety aspect of it, but I've worked for a general contractor before that part of their safety morning stretch and flex activities was everyone sharing, and then the managers and the leaders had an ear open for things that people may be dealing with personally that might distract them from being able to work safely.
And then it's almost like job hazard analysis, but on the human side of it, where you're like, okay, let's address this and make sure it's safe for everyone.
And I guess then the version that we get to experience in an office is having one-on-ones and connecting with our team members more personally, on a personal level, to understand when maybe just their own life stresses, they're buying a house.
I mean, it could be positive things, but it adds on, that's like a weight on you.
And then I would imagine, and this is not to discount, severity of certain issues, but technically, we all are dealing with something.
But as you get to know people personally, you can understand what level, what are the underlying things that they are dealing with all the time, that just kind of like, they have to get above that, to just kind of feel starting to be normal.
And then you put on the stresses of their personal life, the things at work, and if you can find that understanding of where they're coming from, you can, I think, as a team, help better.
So, lots of good things there.
Becky, what have you experienced, or what would you recommend, let's just say for a marketing team, just to narrow the field a little bit there.
How can a team support each other, make that connection so that people can feel like can be themselves and share where they're really at?
I think the best contribution that anybody can make in a team, in a marketing department, let's say, is to speak openly about your own issues that you're struggling with.
If you're feeling stressed, if you've got something going on, to sort of be the example, and then that sort of makes the other people around you feel comfortable about speaking up about their things.
So if, and I think that kind of comes from the top down a little bit.
If you have the leadership kind of openly saying, hey, let's check in everybody, how are we doing?
You know, oh, I'm dealing with some stuff.
I'm really stressed out, so I need to do this to make sure that I can get my work done and still take care of my life.
That sort of being the example makes it safe for others to do the same, because if they see their leadership, the people who are sort of making decisions and empower at the company or whatever doing those things, they think, okay, well, maybe it's okay for me to do that too.
Another way that people can help support one another is just to check in and ask questions and listen and try to be non-judgmental and curious and ask questions.
A lot of times, I think the word microaggressions is a very loaded word, but basically, just what that means is sometimes people can be talking casually about mental health in such a way that you might just jokingly say, oh, somebody's, they're crazy.
That's, I don't know, what are they, bipolar?
People have often said those things without meaning any malicious intent.
But for someone who might be struggling with those issues, to hear that casually thrown out in their workplace can be very damaging to know.
Oh, you might wonder, is that what they think about me?
So I think just taking a quick look, a very gentle, kind look inward at like, what are the things that I'm saying?
What's the language I'm using?
And yeah, trying to be just as open as you are comfortable with, with your fellow employees can really go a long way to creating that safe atmosphere, which as you mentioned, Wendy, is part of safety.
I mean, especially in construction within the AC world, safety is a hot issue.
If everybody's not in a good place physically and mentally, you never know what could happen.
If somebody is losing focus.
So to make sure everybody's tip top, it's nice to be able to address those things.
Yeah, I heard there that there's some patience and education that needs to happen when around you, people may be saying things that are unintentionally hurtful or alienating.
How can we all be better?
Being aware is so hard, right?
It's like, you don't know what you don't know.
How can we be better?
And I guess, Becky, I'm not really asking you to solve this for all of us, but you probably have some suggestions of ways that you can...
You know, if someone's just being insensitive, but has a good heart, how can they do better?
It's tough to say that we need to put the responsibility on any one particular party, because, you know, a lot of times you may literally have no idea how to deal with the situation.
Like you said, I think there are a lot of well-meaning people who just don't know.
If you are someone who has been struggling with the people around you, maybe saying things about mental health in such a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, implying that somebody you work with is whatever, you know, fill in the blank.
Like one thing you can do is just kind of just gently, you don't have to be a jerk about it.
Just kind of be like, hey, you know, like, why would you say that?
You know, like that doesn't, I don't think that's true.
You know, like what about them makes you think that that's the case.
You never know what somebody's going through.
We're all going through things.
You can keep it light.
It doesn't have to be a huge confrontation.
When people say stuff like that, I think it very often shuts down the line of conversation by just asking a question.
Like, could you clarify what you mean by that?
I mean, that's often hard to answer for the person on the other side.
But yeah, I think it's important not to escalate a situation by, you know, starting a fight, whatever.
I think it's on all of us right now to kind of support one another because people who are struggling will probably have a harder time confronting folks like that.
So if you yourself feel like maybe you're not the person who might be being targeted by whatever is going on, I mean, like, that's a great opportunity for you to step up, change the conversation.
As Don Draper famously said on Mad Men, if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation, right?
Yeah.
And if you're on the sidelines of those conversations and something perks up, you know, maybe you don't know if it's truly offensive or if anyone even noticed it.
But keeping it light and saying, hey, hey, hey, you know, I mean, just kind of that can be a switch of the direction of that conversation and not piling on.
So you can be in small ways an advocate for everyone in general, right?
Like even trying to catch yourself in random small word choices.
You know, I don't I don't need to rattle them off.
But we have old words that we would say that, you know, feel like they they weren't terrible.
But then you realize, like, wait a second, we want to be more inclusive with our language here.
So just practice, you know, even catching yourself can be an example to other people.
Like, wait a second, it did not mean that.
Let me try that again.
Yeah.
Another thing you can do as someone who may be struggling with mental health issues, if you are having that conversation with your workmates, with your supervisor, a good thing you can do, because that's a scary thing.
I mean, honestly, even even today, even with even with a supervisor who has been openly supportive, of mental health and self-care and things like that, it's really tough to get to come in and say, hey, I'm really struggling with this.
That is really frightening.
A good way to take the fear out of that is to say, here's the issue that I'm having and here are some solutions as to what we can do to make it so that I can do my best work.
If you go in there with a plan and say, these are the reasonable accommodations that I think I might need.
If we can just do this a little bit differently, here's my plan for that.
That way you're not just going in and saying, hey, I've got an issue.
It's a mystery, make up your own mind.
You're saying, I'm struggling with things just like everybody else.
I'm a human being, and here's what you can do.
Here are some concrete things that we can all do to make sure that I'm still doing a great job and everything's working and nothing's getting dropped.
That shows that you're proactive and on top of it, and that just like anybody else who has a disability, like if you can express, these are the accommodations I need to do the job, then that's the strongest position that you can go in with.
And I think right now the demand for talent and we need resources and they are not warm bodies filling spots.
They are people who are talented and are bringing ideas.
I mean, that is strong.
So it's a good opportunity to realize that you are bringing a lot of value to your organization and you could do more or you could certainly not leave if you were able to be open and have these conversations.
So I love to think that managers and people who are leading and building teams understand that, right?
It's like the value of a good person who knows your business and can contribute but needs a certain accommodation.
That's worthwhile.
And others, I mean, I think everyone needs some accommodation.
You know, it may not be related to their mental health situation.
It could be something else, but we all deserve some flexibility and to be heard of what could help us, you know, enjoy our jobs more and do better work.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm very fortunate to be working with someone who does understand those things, and it's you.
And I just feel like whenever I'm struggling or going through something stressful or just need something, I felt like I could come to you and just say, Hey, Wendy, like, I'm dealing with this thing.
Like, can we just, you know, go through the stuff that I need to do and make sure we're on the same page?
Like, just to be able to create that safety, to have that conversation can help a lot of people.
Because, like you said, it's not always some specific, like, mental illness that somebody is dealing with.
It could be stressful life situations.
People have kids.
People need to, like, go pick up their kids or deal with sick kids or they've got, there's a million different things.
And because everyone benefits from this, it's the rising tide that lifts all boats, right?
The more we can all sort of participate in that safety, the better it's going to be for everyone.
Well, you're super nice to pay me a compliment, but I have to say that for everyone else who's listening, I'm certainly not perfect.
What I have put into many teams chats after a conversation with a team or in the big huddle when we get together every day as a group, and I'll say, I may have missed something here.
Is this okay?
Are you overloaded?
Do we need to take something off your plate?
Because I feel dense sometimes.
I feel, I ask the team, I'm like, please do not assume I caught it.
I might not be seeing that in the same way that you're experiencing it.
So I don't know if that helps anyone who is trying to be a better listener or a leader, but just realizing that I don't get it right, and sometimes I have to go circle back around, and I do welcome the team to say, no, hold up.
Like really, this is important, and then to restate it so that I get it, and I can make a change in whatever it might be that we're dealing with.
But I don't see it all.
You know, I'm flying at whatever level, and it is usually not in the nitty-gritty of what you're working on or any of our team members are working on.
But that, I mean, that's just it from the employee's perspective.
Someone who is willing to say, you know, I'm not sure, do you have too much going on?
How are you doing?
Someone who's willing to ask those questions and not just assume, that's the goldmine.
That's what we all want.
We want that supervisor who's going to be like, how are you doing?
Like, I want to make sure.
I just, I don't know that you realize how rare that is, Wendy.
And I hate to present such a dim view, but not everyone is like that.
So I feel like we all at Middle of Six really appreciate that from you.
Oh, good.
Well, I try.
I mean, I really am not to make this about me, but I want to have this place feel like a good, caring place.
And I think we can, I think business should be like that.
So I would like what people are having their experience here, and everyone's going to have a different experience.
We've probably had team members who didn't have that experience, right?
But I'm just saying, if we can do something, maybe those fingers can trickle out into the world, and it can influence other companies that we're near, and team members, when they go and work somewhere else, and they can bring some of the good we did.
And I don't know, I think when we bring a new team member, we can learn from them, too.
Like, what worked for you?
Let's incorporate anything good we can into our process.
Yes.
Yeah, we're all learning every day.
I mean, nobody has to be perfect.
This is all new.
We're all trying things out, learning one another.
Every person's got their own different styles, their own different communications, their own fears, their own...
We are people.
That's the issue here.
Accepting and understanding that people at work are people is such a huge thing towards going towards figuring out how this is all working.
What can we learn?
What can we change?
It's a process.
So yeah, nobody has to be perfect.
You just gotta try.
Yeah, right.
Thank goodness that perfectionism is not the end all.
Like it was when I was in the second grade.
I thought if you were a perfectionist, that was a badge of honor.
I mean, I'm embarrassed to say, I probably got all the way through college before I realized or I learned.
I was educated like, wait a second, this is not what we're aiming for.
And it's kind of freeing when you realize like, okay, we're going to fail, we're going to try new things and accept other people when they're going through that too.
I feel like we could blend very nicely into the conversation about burnout, right?
Because we've talked about, there's the underlying thing that everyone is dealing with, and it can be big and small, and it can change.
And it's about talking and learning about where everyone's at, so that we can constantly be moving forward in a positive way.
But then there's this topic of burnout, where I think that we see that, we hear about it.
I mean, it's all over LinkedIn conversations I'm seeing where people are talking about burnout.
In our industry, it definitely seems to be rampant.
For that, as a standalone topic, Becky, how do you think individual marketers can help avoid getting trapped in burnout?
What are the preventative measures to not get to that breaking point?
That is a really tough one, and it is an important issue.
It comes from all sides of the equation.
There are responsibilities on the part of the individuals themselves, the employees.
There is responsibility on the part of their managers.
There is responsibility on the part of the organization as a whole, the culture and tone that's being set.
There's so many nuances to this.
But what you can control is what you can control.
So as an individual, and I'll just speak to the people who are doing hands-on marketing, employees in AEC marketing.
It is very important to communicate to anyone who can make decisions and help you out, and start with your immediate supervisor.
Let them know if you are doing too many things, you have got to be open with that person and say, look, I've got too much on my plate.
Is there anyone who can help me out?
Is there any of the stuff that can be prioritized, triaged?
Help me out.
That's always step one.
That's the first thing you want to do.
I understand that that may not always be a person you feel like you can go to.
There are all kinds of situations, but you have to try.
That's really the best you can do.
Do diligence.
Communicate.
What is on your plate?
What do you need?
Again, come in with suggestions.
Don't just complain.
Come with plans.
Say, what if we did this?
How can we do that?
That keeps you in a position of strength.
And then for people who are maybe running a department, a marketing department head, somebody like that, the more you can take a look at everybody's workload, and that can be accomplished through check-ins, which could be in the form of a one-on-one check-in, which we definitely do every week at Middle of Six.
Another great thing to do is we also have a...
We have an all-company huddle because we're a small company, but if you maybe could get your department or your region or whatever group of people make sense to get on a...
We do this every day.
Every day, we have a meeting where all of us will just check in.
We'll talk about what we're working on.
People will share problems if they're having them.
People will share personal issues that they're going through.
We have...
I don't know that I've seen a huddle go by that we didn't have at least one sort of sharing of like, hey, here's some stuff I'm dealing with, and other people will chime in.
We also have fun.
We talk about what TV shows we're watching.
This is such a small, short, quick thing, but can go such a long way to building that camaraderie and also developing that safety for people to talk to each other.
So in terms of burnout, if you are beginning to feel burned out, the time to address it is immediately.
Don't wait until you are crying and typing, for sure.
Right, just to define burnout, I'm thinking about this as you were talking, that burnout isn't necessarily just that one project is breaking you.
It is the prolonged feeling of overwhelm and that you are not having successes and that you're not, could be any number of these factors, but you're not appreciated for your work.
It's like getting to be like a factory where you wonder, am I really adding value or do I have time to be creative and do something strategic or is it just production?
That feeling that just goes on for, I'm going to guess that it's more of months and months and not days and days.
It really takes a while to get to burnout.
And if you get to that point where you are burnt out, you may not even be crying at your computer because you may be just so burnt out, you're emotionally drained.
There isn't anything.
You can't even get the energy to start.
I mean, that's a terrible situation to be in.
I'm not going to say that everyone has been there, but it's very common.
We meet a lot of marketers who have reached out to us and they're feeling that.
So we know it's all over the place.
So anyways, defining burnout at that level, Becky, what you said is the time to address it is immediately because you are already in it.
If you're at that point, if you look around, then it is time to make a change.
Yeah, and a lot of times the struggle there can come from being especially if you're a small marketing department or a department of one, the other people in your organization probably have little to no clue as to what exactly you do because people are not working hands-on in proposal documents.
They're not combing through RFPs.
It's just a very specialized type of work.
So there may be people who just genuinely do not know the amount of work and time, et cetera, that goes into these things.
So if you're someone who ends up doing six proposals at a time, because the other people in your company don't know how labor-intensive that really is, the only way they're going to know is if you communicate to them, here's what's going on.
This is about how much time it's taking me.
This is what goes into this process.
These are too many things to be doing at once.
And the business case, if they are not the most touchy-feely of people, is that I'm not able to do my best work if I'm spread this thin.
So if we would like to put out a high-quality product with no errors that stands out, whatever the goals are, we are going to have to redistribute this amount of work.
And I think it's unfair to have anybody be a department of one, I mean, unless you are just the tiniest company ever, to have somebody be on their own with literally no backup, it's very dangerous.
It's not smart because if that person gets sick or leaves or whatever, there's no one who can back that person up.
And I feel like that is a 100% recipe for burnout every time.
That person will eventually burn out, you know, and that's tough.
Marketing people, I've said this before, where it feels like we are on an island.
You know, you technically do have a larger team because people who are doing business development or the principals or the folks who are actually doing the work and then, you know, you're mining for the content.
I mean, they are part of your team, but it's so different.
Their focus is so different than what the marketing work is that you can feel very alone.
It's hard to be a marketing department of one, and you're totally right on there, Becky, that no one else really knows what you're doing and how long it takes.
I think there's an underestimation all the time of what it takes to produce a proposal.
And Alison Tivnon, in her book Marketing at Low Tide, has a whole chapter about creating data.
You know, principles, firm leaders love data.
So track your hours and track it for everything that you're doing, so that you can show how long different proposals take, how long awards and mills take, how much time you're spending on social media.
We've consulted many times with firms about mapping out a social media plan and put real hours to, this is how much time it will take marketing to write that or edit it and design it and post it.
But by the way, there's also, I don't know, somewhere between two and ten hours from your subject matter experts to provide content approvals.
Like, there's an underestimation in everything.
They think, oh, the social media post takes 30 minutes.
No, it might take eight hours.
And so let's think about how do you want to spend those eight hours of human resource time?
And that can be a leading point to actually building a bigger team or carving out time from other people's team to contribute to marketing.
So you have more support, but it's really impossible to run marketing for any size company with one person.
Truly.
Yeah.
And I mean, I think I can't tell you how many times people have said something like, you know, wave your magic wand, work your magic magic button.
They say that, I think, not not to demean and diminish what we do, but because they literally don't know.
To them, it's magic, because you just go into your office and come out with a beautiful, wonderful document that meets all the requirements, whatever.
People, they don't know the actual technical, like, what goes into making those things.
So yeah, the more you can communicate and come with the data and the facts and the figures and the money, what is this costing?
That will really get through, I think, to your management.
And you know what?
If you're in a position where you're constantly communicating, hey, I'm burned out, here's the facts and figures, this is what's going on.
And they're just not listening to you.
You may have to make that hard decision to evaluate, is this the right place for me?
Because if you've tried and you've genuinely gone through those channels and you've talked to everyone you can talk to and they're not responding, I just, life is so short.
You know, it's just not worth destroying your health, destroying your well-being for a job.
At the end of the day, this is a job.
We're all doing a job.
But the more we can respect each other as people, not only the better we're all going to feel, but the better work that's going to be done.
Every time, I've seen it again and again.
People who are being burned out and disrespected and ignored are not turning out great work.
Those same people could be doing wonderful things if they just felt valued and listened to.
Just listen.
That's the least you can do.
And it goes such a long way to making people feel like they want to try and will do better.
Yeah, absolutely.
100%.
I feel like I'm going to lead a revolution here, but I'm going to just tell all marketing people, if you're being abused and if you are feeling burnt out and no one is listening to you, it is time to stand up and leave.
No naming names here, but this is actually happening out there where some firms cannot hire or they cannot recruit.
Their culture is so toxic related to how they treat marketing people.
It's out there in the marketplace, and marketers are not going there to go and sign up for that experience.
And I say, yeah, absolutely, do not do that to yourself.
I don't know if it's true or if I'm just generalizing here, but I feel like AEC marketers are some of the hardest working, dedicated people I've ever met.
And, you know, granted, I've been in that space for a while now where that's like my core people, but I see it time and time again.
So you're not trapped.
It doesn't have to be the normal.
There are options.
This is a time when you can go and find one of the many, many companies that respects marketers, that pays them well and appreciates and actually really does live up to like work-life balance.
And we see that, you know, we see them, they're out there.
Go get that and vote with your, I don't know, vote with your dollars, but that's not the same.
Like, you know, take yourself.
Vote with your application.
Exactly.
And get the heck out of there.
So anyway.
Oh, man.
Well, we did think through some like tips that you could use to help avoid burnout.
And you know, I think we like, you know, mentioned a few things here or there.
But honestly, that might just be a whole nother giant episode, Becky, because it's so unique to each individual.
You know, maybe this is a good blog post or something we can brainstorm as a team.
But just as far as today goes, I think we've done a decent job teeing up the subject.
Hopefully, anyone who's listening feels that they are not alone, that it is okay to be the human person that you are.
You deserve to be accepted and respected in your company.
You're adding value.
I know you are.
So believe that in yourself.
And hopefully, my wish for you is you find that place where you're being respected and you feel welcome, and then you can do great work, inspire others, and feel really good.
Because like you said, Becky, life is short.
So what the heck?
We should work somewhere good.
We should feel good about it and then be able to leave that and go and enjoy the rest of our life, too.
Thank you so much for this conversation.
I appreciate your bravery, for your sharing, for making sure that we put this out there.
And I think we should do it again at some point when we can dig even deeper.
I agree.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for talking about this.
And listeners, we would love to hear from you.
If you have thoughts on this, if you're struggling, if you have questions, let's talk, shoot us an email.
If you have questions, we could do our best to answer them.
Or obviously, again, we are not doctors or lawyers, but we are marketers and we understand.
So yeah, we'd love to hear from you.
And if you have topics that you'd like to be addressed, want to be kept anonymous, whatever, we respect that.
But yeah, it's a privilege to be able to talk about this.
And I hope that we can help somebody feel less alone, because you are not alone.
It can be easy to feel alone in this industry, especially in the specific nature of what we do.
But there are others out there who are rooting for you and can understand and relate.
And we love you.
Yeah, that's great.
Let's end on that.
We love you.
The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six and hosted by me, Wendy Simmons, principal marketing strategist.
Our producer is Kyle Davis, with digital marketing and graphic design by the team at Middle of Six.
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Until next time, keep on hustling.
Bye!
Take care of yourself and each other.
The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.