Whether you're a seasoned AEC marketer or just recently joined the industry, Senior Creative Strategist Becky Ellison and host Wendy Simmons are here to answer the question, 'If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself in the first year of your career?' Becky and Wendy share specific recommendations for marketers who are still learning about the industry, refining their voice, and finding value in their fresh perspective. The two cover everything from the importance of speaking up and asking questions to prioritizing selfcare–even when on a deadline. We couldn't have done this topic justice without valuable tips from the rest of the Middle of Six team, including Melissa Richey, Grace Takehara, and Allison Tivnon.
CPSM CEU Credits: 0.75 | Domain: 6
Podcast Transcript
Welcome to The Shortlist.
We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.
I'm your host, Wendy Simmons, and each episode, I'll be joined by one of my team members from Middle of Six to answer your questions.
Today, we have Becky Ellison back on the pod as we talk about tips and advice for first year AEC marketers.
I have a feeling this is gonna be pretty relevant to even those long-term industry veterans.
So I've been working in AEC marketing for about 15 years.
Becky, how long have you been in the game?
Wow, 15 years.
I have been in the game now for 12 years officially, I think.
Right on my tail.
I'm right behind you, yeah, a long time.
15 years does not feel very long, honestly, you know?
I'm gonna be straight with you, but I didn't start off in AEC marketing, so you have to dabble in different industries, kind of figure out what might be interesting and cool, jump over to AEC like a lot of us do, and then you find out if you're gonna stay or not, right?
What did you start off in?
Well, I went to school and got a degree in graphic design, maybe a little bit like you, right?
Graphic design.
And so I worked as a designer, but in marketing departments, and I was kind of started off in the public sector, working for a transportation authority and then a zoo, and it was all kind of like interesting government work, but it was also government work, so no offense to anyone who's in that.
Wow, I did not know you worked for a zoo.
That's amazing.
I've never known anyone who worked for a zoo.
I mean, other than like the Mighty Boosh.
No, the zoo was so fun.
What an amazing place to work as a 24-year-old person, helping create television commercials and radio commercials and having like Aardvarks walk into your office on a Friday.
You know, very fun.
I've never even met an Aardvark.
I'm so impressed right now.
They're pretty cute.
Yeah, I got those little noses.
What were we talking about again?
Who cares, let's talk Aardvarks.
I mean, actually, I think this is pretty relevant to the conversation because what a lot of AEC marketers will say if they're talking for the first time, they'll be like, how did you get your start in AEC marketing?
Because we don't go to school for it, right?
So true.
That's not really what people are thinking when they go into marketing.
And so somehow we find ourselves taking a job or meeting a friend or being curious, and then we jump over into it.
So for me, I was working at the zoo, really liking it, but I was interested in moving my career into more of marketing.
And so I had this opportunity to go from being the designer into marketing more broadly.
And so now that's what I do, but it took me five years of working in other places than move over to AEC.
And so that's my 15-year start.
Sure.
Becky, how did you get your start in AEC marketing?
So my background is in graphic design as well.
And I also came from a zero construction, architecture and engineering background.
I knew nothing when I came into the industry.
Before I joined the AEC world, I worked for a non-profit social services organization that helped families of children with disabilities.
Completely different to the AEC industry.
But everybody's communicating something, right?
So that storytelling, it applies.
And I think we'll find that a lot of different fields can apply when you're coming into the industry.
And as you said, I mean, whenever you do meet another AEC marketing person, there's always that, how on earth did you come across this?
Because I mean, in my time, I've never met anybody who just had that construction architecture or whatever background and went into marketing in the industry.
Everyone I've met in AEC marketing has come from somewhere else.
It feels very accidental.
It's just sort of like, well, that sounded like an interesting job.
I wanted to use my skills.
Here we are.
And then you sort of learn, you get such a crash course in this brand new industry.
And that can be kind of exciting and fun learning all the new different things.
Yeah, I think I one time was at a conference and someone did mention that they actually went to school with the goal of working in construction for marketing, construction marketing.
But that was, they were like the one person in a room of 600 or something.
So it doesn't happen very often.
So when you made the transition over to AEC, what did you like about it?
What kind of made you say, okay, now I'm going to be here for 12 years or keep going?
What was the motivator?
I don't know that I thought that far ahead, but I liked the people I was working with.
And I found that people in the AEC industry are people who like to step on the gas and get stuff done.
You have phases, you know, cause everything you think in projects in the AEC industry, you plan, you discuss, and then you get going.
You know, you get shovels in the dirt, you get pen to paper, whatever you're going to do.
And then everybody is like coming together as a team to make something happen.
And that occurs whether you are out building a building, or designing something, or whether you're working in marketing on a proposal, pulling a team together, everybody coming together, and you have that very, you know, schedule, budget.
So we got to keep everything on time.
So there's that kind of adrenaline that's always coursing, especially as you get up close to the deadline of, you know, who can we pull in to make this work?
Okay, you develop your shorthand, you're in the trenches.
It's very exhilarating, you know, when you get close to that deadline.
And then once you hit the deadline, you're done, on to the next project.
So that cyclical nature of life just sort of appealed to me, I guess.
I like the excitement.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Maybe AEC marketers are a little bit of adrenaline junkies.
There's pressure, there's a lot of pressure.
Now I'm so, like, accustomed, I have to have a deadline for everything in life because that's how I work, is on a deadline.
And you're right, it's exhilarating when you're kind of in the flow and making progress and seeing things come together.
And so lovely when it's all done.
The topic that you proposed for today, which I think is super fascinating, it's just kind of like, you know, if you could go back in time, knowing everything you know now about what it's like to sit in the chair of an AEC marketer, what would you tell that 12 years younger person as they're starting off their career?
What are the tips?
What are the, I don't know, things to avoid?
What are the pieces of advice that might keep them sane or keep them in the business too?
You know, all of that stuff.
I think that you have thought through a lot of things that you would want to share, and then you were so nice and reached out to the rest of the Middle of Six team, picked their brains, got some ideas, so we'll sprinkle those in throughout.
Anyway, so where do you want to start?
What would you tell that younger Becky?
So as the still very young Becky, I would tell the slightly younger Becky, one thing for sure is don't be afraid to speak up.
If you think that you might have noticed a mistake or an inconsistency of some kind, a missing piece in a proposal, that sort of thing, because as a fresh out of the gate, first year marketing person, you might feel a little shy, timid, oh, I don't really know what's going on, what I'm talking about, I'm just a cog in the wheel.
But I guarantee you, even the president of the company is gonna support you if you're the reason that they didn't get disqualified on a multimillion dollar proposal.
So part of our job as marketing people, and this is especially to people who work on proposals, which is a lot of what we do, you have to think like a lawyer.
You have to comb through those RFP documents and read every single word, and you may be the only person who's really doing that because the other people contributing, they're writing approach, they're thinking about budget, schedule, they might be estimators, whatever, and everybody's doing their part, and you as the marketing person are that frontline of, hey, these are the requirements, these are the rules, somebody's gotta do that.
So if you're reading through there and you think, oh no, the RFP said we had to do, it had to be 10 point font, and we've got nine point font, and you're not sure if you should say something, you absolutely should, because that could very well be the thing that gets you in the door rather than disqualified.
And even things that aren't really in the domain of the person who's putting together their proposal, things that you may not even understand, the schedule has to be, there's things I don't even understand.
But I've read enough RFPs at this point to know when this looks like something we really need to be careful about.
And 12 years ago, I was a lot more nervous about speaking up and saying, hey, I think we're supposed to.
I don't know what this means, but I think it says this in the RFP.
And you got to get over that fear of being the small cog in the wheel to just kind of, you could be the hero.
Even you, the first year marketer could be the person who saves the ship from sinking.
So always speak up.
That's good advice for sure.
And then also another perspective on that is that your team is, from my experience, your team is so busy, so busy.
And the proposals, one more thing on top of their other projects that they're running and other things that are going on.
So if you can essentially memorize that RFP and know it backward and forward so that you're in a meeting, you can help them be more efficient.
You know, you can be a good safety net.
You can make sure you don't waste time going off track on something that isn't allowed or at least have a strategic conversation if they're going to do something that looks like maybe that's not in the parameters.
You can be a knowledgeable person at the table rather than just being like, well, gosh, I'm not sure.
I don't know about that.
So essentially, you are really kind of trying to memorize it and keep it straight from all the other proposals you're working on.
That's so true.
And that's often our first experience of kind of leaning in at the table, is kind of coming into this environment where you don't know a lot about what you're doing yet, but you know you've read that RFP.
You know what you've read.
You have that information.
It kind of gives you that practice early in your career to kind of say, hey, I do know this.
I may not know how to build a building or whatever, but here's the information.
And you do that enough times, and that repetition builds confidence.
And the next time you come to the group with some information, they're going to listen to what you have to say, because they've seen you do it before.
You've got that attention to detail.
And I think that's just good to bolster your confidence in the industry.
Another tip for a new marketer might be to pay attention to that proposal deadline and not, even if your team is going to submit the proposal at noon, in advance of a 5 p.m.
deadline, it's safe to assume that you probably are on call for the next four or five hours until officially, officially the deadline has passed.
It can be a mistake to send out the proposal and then, I don't know, go to happy hour or jump on a bus, start commuting home or whatever it might be, because it has happened more than on one occasion where you get the call that something was missing or someone saw something that they'd like to change.
You like to avoid those last-minute changes, but you have to decide is it worth it or not.
And so basically, be on call until the actual proposal deadline has passed and then you won't be scrambling at the last minute.
That is an excellent point because man, that happens so many times, I can't tell you.
You always think, oh, well, here we go.
This is it.
You hit send.
You're not done.
Yeah, absolutely.
Always wait until the deadline itself has passed.
And then I would say always get confirmation and ask whoever is making the delivery or sending the email or whatever.
If you're doing it yourself, take a picture, get whatever proof and confirmation you can, and then share that with the whole team so that everybody can breathe sigh of relief.
We can all go have lunch, whatever.
One thing we like to do is everybody would sort of applaud.
And then we'd like take off a little bit early when we'd get a big proposal submitted, and that can be kind of fun and festive.
But you're always, you've always got to be like on that phone, on the computer.
You got to keep an ear open no matter how experienced you get.
Even even now, I'm not, I'm never like, I always budget that extra time for who knows what, even after the deadline a little bit.
I'm extra cautious.
I've had BM say that they will not go to sleep until they get the phone call that that proposal went in.
I mean, I think it's that nerve wracking.
So yeah, that's smart.
Take a picture or forward the e-mail confirmation and everyone can celebrate, and then you can breathe a sigh of relief.
For sure.
It's one of those team building times.
I mean, that's when you really get to know the people you're with.
I mean, I remember submitting a proposal literally at the exact second it was due.
We just were like in the office just freaking out, shaking.
The project manager was like, shut up, everybody shut up, like desperately trying to send the e-mail.
You should never be in that position.
New marketers, oh my god, never wait until the exact second it's due.
Things happen that are beyond your control.
But again, we're in the trenches, that adrenaline is going.
It makes you want to keep going and do better and shoot for earlier and all those sorts of things.
Eventually with some experience you learn to, going back to your first point, like speak up.
You can have a voice and say, drawing the line, like if we make this change, we don't have time to do this.
Or if we rewrite this whole section, we won't have the time for the proper QC.
And I do think that unless you're working with a team that's in proposals all the time, I mean, some of the little details of the last minute stuff can be overlooked by them.
And quality is the first thing to go out the window if you're taking it down to last second.
So nice to be able to start coaching your team to be 24 hours in advance or eight hours in advance and giving yourself a window there.
Moving beyond proposals, because maybe we should have just had this whole episode be about proposals and tips, that would have been good.
That's been most of my career.
But do you have other tips related to like working with technical professionals and translating their area of expertise into something for a proposal, or I don't know, anything like that, just working with colleagues in a totally new industry?
Yeah, one thing that comes up as a new person in AEC marketing is you're working with a lot of people who have expertise in areas that you don't even understand.
You're working with engineers, you're working with construction, project managers, superintendents, people who are out there hammering nails.
And you might get a call from somebody who's standing in a foot of mud, and you've got to get information from them for a proposal about a success story.
How did you stay on budget at XYZ Project?
And in order to be able to successfully communicate with those folks, you've got to learn their language.
You've got to understand where they're coming from.
What their job is like.
So getting out to the job site, talking with the people, just saying, hey, I heard that you're a superintendent.
What is that?
What do you do?
And just ask them what they do all day, so that you can wrap your mind around where this person is coming, so you can meet them halfway.
So that when you are on that phone call and they're in mud on the job site, you can understand what that means, what time constraints they're under, and you can put into their terms what you're looking for.
Because sometimes you can't just regurgitate the RFP question.
Sometimes you've got to say, hey, remember on whatever hospital when you guys did that thing?
To be able to speak to them on their level goes such a long way when you're coming at them saying, oh, I know you're really busy, but we've got this deadline.
It just builds that respect within your company because they understand what you're doing.
They appreciate that you're making the effort to learn about what they're doing.
And then you can communicate with them in a respectful and positive way that still gets the information on time.
So you think the best way to learn their language is to get out there on projects, kind of like in the field or in the work session so that you're seeing it happen in real time?
If that's feasible, sure, and safe.
It can be a heck of a thing to get out on a job site, especially nowadays.
You never know what's going on safety-wise and whatever.
You can't always be out in the field, but it can really go a long way to just kind of shoot somebody an email and say, hey, I was just curious if you could talk to me about your project now that you're not under a million deadlines, like whatever, that's a good time.
Just kind of reach out and get to know those folks, because I find that working in marketing, you're in that office a lot and you're working with the other people that you're always doing proposals with and whatever.
But you may not be connecting with the folks who are sort of out on site doing those things.
So to just sort of learn about what they do will give you that vocabulary, so that next time you have a question, you know what rebar is, you know what fireproofing is, whatever.
Those kinds of things so that they don't see you as just this person from the office that they've never encountered, but as someone who's making an effort to learn about what they do.
A lot of firms, just as part of their process, have either, I don't know, monthly kind of all hands meetings around a certain project or they'll focus on a project and they'll report out, I've only worked on the GC side in-house, but I think architects also do some charrettes and other ways of looking at their designs.
So they're communicating across the whole office.
So if your company does that, it definitely wouldn't skip out on that.
I know there's always another deadline in marketing, but if you can attend some of those meetings and get a feel, you'll pick up other things that might be like tidbits for a blog post or a story or that something interesting is coming up or just over time, you start to learn about the process and what might seem like a big success story or just you kind of get a feel for like, what is actually technically happening out there that might turn into a part of a award submittal or a case study and a proposal.
So not spending all of your time at your desk writing about it, but actually just kind of being near the project teams.
I don't know how that's been impacted by work from home.
Hopefully, we're not being too disconnected from actually the work that's happening out there and you get a chance to visit with the teams in person.
It can be very tough coming into an industry that you know nothing about.
But I would say don't be ashamed of not having an AEC background.
A lot of times it can be your greatest strength because as the marketing person, you are likely coming into a team that is full of a lot of people who are very good at what they do, know a lot about construction, architecture, engineering, and they get into that world where that's their expertise, that's what they know.
And then when it comes time to put something out to potential clients, to the public who may or may not know anything about construction or engineering, etc.
Being that person who has the outside perspective of someone who's still learning about the industry, you can sort of be that filter to make sure that the information you're putting out makes sense to someone who doesn't have a construction background, etc.
For the hospital administrator who's reading a proposal that knows nothing about target value design, you've got to be able to explain those things in a quick way that tells a story, which is something you bring as a marketing person in a creative field.
You're used to telling stories and communicating information in a quick and interesting way.
And then when you're submitting a proposal, I would say your number one job is to stand out from the competition, to be different from the other firms.
Because oftentimes, everybody who submits is going to be qualified to build the building or design the thing or whatever.
But you've got to be the firm that says, hey, we're different and here's why.
And that is a lot of times very much accomplished in the proposal phase.
So it's kind of it's almost all on the marketing people to do that.
So you don't you don't need to know about concrete or whatever to stand out from the pack.
You just have to be able to take the information and put it out in a way that it jumps out at the reader.
It's easy to understand.
It's it's enjoyable to sift through, easy to pick out the important points and makes a statement that says, hey, we're not the other guys.
This is why you should hire us.
None of that requires a degree in architecture, engineering or construction.
Yeah, that freshness doesn't stay forever.
Eventually, you know, you'll be a seasoned old veteran like us and read one million RFPs.
At least, you know, that brings some good things, too.
But yeah, you're those that fresh set of eyes and and not and, you know, being able to put yourself in the you may be even like the end user seat, right?
Or someone is really far away from the construction process.
But maybe what you're trying to demonstrate is how you're going to communicate to the community or do outreach and that sort of thing.
So that's a nice perspective to bring through that that process and also potentially for things like award submittals or press releases that are going out to the broader community.
It's not just focused on on an owner of a project or that kind of thing.
So tons of value.
I like that.
Don't be ashamed.
It's good.
For sure.
It's such an asset.
Yeah, you may be the only one who's got that outside perspective and they need that whether they know it or not.
Well, what else would you tell that first year marketer?
What else would you tell yourself?
One thing that you will learn is that this business is very stressful.
It's very difficult.
It's high pressure.
You're working with deadlines that cannot be missed.
And there is a lot of money on the table.
There's a lot of people's jobs.
There's a lot of important things that go into marketing pursuits when you work in AEC marketing.
And it is absolutely a team effort, and everybody's going to have their own perspective.
Everyone's going to react to this stress in their own way.
But emotions tend to run high, regardless of what your position is in the process.
As a hands-on marketing person in AEC, it can be very overwhelming at times to be the person who's got their fingertips on the keyboard, who's putting together a proposal, who's making sure that deadline is met.
And then that can take a toll.
Depending on where you are working, the people you're working with, this can manifest in several ways.
You can deal with it in several ways.
I would say one important thing to know is that you should never be crying at work about work.
If you need to cry, cry.
I'm never going to judge you or tell you how to feel.
But I feel like it is an important measure to take a look and say, hey, is this taking a toll on my well-being?
And if so, you really need to speak with your supervisor early on and you need to have a very open and honest conversation with them and say, hey, this is really taking a toll on me.
I'm really stressed.
This is too much work.
This is too, whatever the issue is.
And if they are not willing or able to help you with that, you may want to look at another opportunity because it can happen early on in your career that you think, oh, this is how it is.
This is just every proposal is this stressful.
Every week, I'm working 80 hours a week.
That must be normal.
I must.
This is just how you feel.
Everyone must be crying at their desk.
Not necessarily.
No, I would say that.
And everyone's got a different opinion on this.
But I think your well-being is very important, and it can be hard to gauge that early in your career when you're not really sure what's normal and what's not.
So always have that conversation.
It's very important to put your well-being first.
I would say, why not?
Put your health first, both mental and physical.
And if you are not able to work out a situation that makes you feel like you're doing good work and thriving as a human being, you may want to look around and see if there's other environments that might be better suited to you.
It's good advice.
And it's also kind of makes me a little bit sad, but AEC marketing is not for everyone.
Just like everything is not for everyone, right?
I mean, you're going to find something that you are really passionate about, that you love, you enjoy the thrill, you like the pressure.
I mean, those of us who have stayed in it long enough, enjoy the ups and the downs, and it kind of makes it interesting.
But I've known my fair share of people who had some time in the seat and realized that they'd like to spend their time doing something else.
It just isn't really kind of vibing with their personality or how their own emotional state is, right?
So it's not a bad thing if you choose to not continue, but paying attention to it.
And like you said, Becky, maybe making sure you're communicating with your supervisors and coworkers if you need something, or if it just feels a little bit out of whack, because marketing is an overhead position, usually not billable to projects.
And I think it can be easy for firms to not realize how much is on the marketing team's plates.
And so unless you speak up, they may not know that resources need to be adjusted, or that there could be something that could be fixed so that you can do great work and really enjoy your work too.
Some other things that you can do just to encourage your own health and wellbeing, things that might sound obvious but aren't, I think when you first start working out in the high pressure, high stress, fast-paced deadlines world, is you have got to kind of budget time for yourself to get up and take a break and walk around.
You've got to make sure you've got enough water.
You've got to make sure you've got snacks and food.
And this sounds like you're going out hiking through the wilderness.
But when you get to that deadline day, you never know when you're going to be able to take a break and hand off the draft to somebody else.
Or when are we going to be able to have lunch?
Am I going to have to eat a protein bar while I'm typing?
I don't know.
You begin to learn those rhythms as you go and to kind of anticipate what to expect.
But in the beginning, there were a lot of times when I found myself going, Oh, God, I haven't eaten for eight hours.
You know, what am I going to do?
And now it's too late because we're too close.
You know, you don't want to get in that position where it's like too close to the deadline.
And you're wondering, should I drink some water?
Like, you got to plan that ahead at first.
Absolutely.
And like you said, you've thought before, like, Oh, my gosh, I haven't eaten in eight hours.
Sometimes for me, and it doesn't happen anymore because I've controlled it a little bit better.
But I would get up from my desk and like, Oh, my gosh, I haven't moved from my desk for eight hours.
Like, that's a scary feeling.
And you realize, like, it seems fine when you're in the sitting position, and then you get up, you're like, Oh, no, I broke myself.
Yeah, that's not good.
Sitting, sitting too long will kill you.
And that is, yeah, it will.
And eight hours on a proposal can fly by.
It will feel like three hours or something.
I mean, it will feel like, yeah, I've been here a while, but you're like, No, I was here all day.
So you got to you have to take care of yourself.
Yeah, those are those are good tips.
You should have like a marketing welcome kit, right?
When it's got your water bottle.
Yeah, I don't know, foot massager, some socks, anything to make yourself comfortable.
Absolutely.
And there's always time for it.
There really is.
People are animals and we need to function, which means we need to be hydrated and fed, and you've got to be able to walk and rest.
As you're working for a company that will not let you drink water, eat, rest, or get up and walk, leave.
That is a red flag for sure.
But there's a way to maximize time.
I mean, if you're literally the only person, that may be an issue where you have to carefully schedule.
But if you've got at least one other person that could be even...
They don't even have to be marketing.
You know what?
No.
If you've got any other person that could be even looking at the draft, reading through it, editing, whatever, you work it out with them.
Hey, I'm going to go for a walk.
Here's the draft.
Do whatever you have to do and then switch back.
You can get right back into it and they can go on their walk.
It's all a very...
It's a dance.
Your sailor is on a submarine.
I don't know what to compare it to, but you get to the point where you work together and it becomes almost second nature, but not at first.
So at first, new first-year marketers plan ahead, snacks, water and exercise.
Yes, that's good.
I like it.
I like all your analogies.
Sailor is on a submarine.
I'm obsessed with analogies.
I can't just get to the point.
Well, I don't know if this is exactly a perfect segue, but I feel like it is related to not being stuck at your desk for eight hours and making sure to take care of yourself.
I mean, taking care of yourself professionally in your career is one of the tips that came to mind as we were brainstorming for this.
I spent, I think, too much time early in my career.
AEC just focused on the work.
I mean, it was just very demanding.
I had my head down, work, work, work, work, work.
And I was a member of SNPS, but I rarely engaged at the level that I do now and at the level I should have.
It would have been amazing for me to step away from my computer and go out there and build my professional network for so many reasons.
So that's another thing to be thinking about.
The work is super demanding, but you're gonna have to take care of yourself, take care of yourself professionally too, and learn something, be inspired, go for a walk and see something fresh and new and just see what's going on in the world so that you can do a better job.
And part of that might be like going to the industry associations and meeting people and making connections with other marketers across the industry so that you can have resources when you're working on a proposal together.
Maybe it's a design-build team or something like that.
You've got these connections and helps lighten your load when you're kind of in the thick of all of it.
Yeah, one of our Middle of Six favorites, Melissa Richie, contributed to the conversation when we were kind of brainstorming among the staff.
What would you tell yourself when you were a first year AEC marketer?
Her advice was to join SMPS and join a roundtable because it's valuable to get to know your peers in the industry, especially if you're a department of one, one of those people in a silo.
So to have that sounding board and mentoring relationships and to be able to meet your counterparts, that the client firms and your teaming partner firms, that way when you're in the deadline trenches with those people, you'll have that personal relationship.
You can build that camaraderie and that trust.
You never know what kind of connections might just blossom into something else, right?
You're going to have a long career, people move around a lot in AEC.
Maybe someone you meet out there is going to be a future team member for you.
So it's nice to start building those relationships.
They'll serve you well.
And I definitely think I started off about five years behind in that.
So lesson learned.
I'm an introvert.
So I'm speaking to all the people out there who are afraid to leave the room, let alone go to an association.
It's not essential, but no, it is.
And you can join in on, you know, webinars and like video conference chats and those kind of like, you know, little breakfast sessions and whatever.
And that can be a valuable time to kind of chat with the other people, to hear kind of what's going on, to see other people like you, dip your toe, and then when you can work up the courage, maybe go to a networking event.
Yeah, when you're ready to leave the house.
I mean, I facilitate a roundtable for SNPS and it's all virtual.
Now, we do try to get together once or twice a year.
It used to be always in person, but of course things changed and we all realized how nice it is to get together, but just via teams.
So we jump on and once a month at lunch and we get to say hi and talk through what's on our mind and ask questions and it's still a gathering, but it's a lower effort because we're going to have to drive anywhere and park and all that stuff.
And you can kind of flex it into your schedule pretty easily because it's just over the lunch hour.
So there are more and more options for getting involved without having to really put yourself out there.
And sometimes those roundtables are good because they're a small group.
That's nice.
Wendy, I'd love to hear some more of your tips.
I know you said when you first started out that you were all about the work and just really intense, keep your head down, work, work, work, get it done.
I wonder if that led to, did you ever feel like you were getting emotionally invested in the wins and losses, that sort of thing?
Yeah, definitely.
It took me a bunch of wins and losses to realize that it wasn't a personal reflection on myself and that it wasn't my loss.
I don't know.
I was really, I guess, super competitive and also all in.
I believed in my team, I believed in our company, I believed we were the best, and so it was shocking to me if we didn't win.
And the truth is, is that every firm and every discipline has a different metric for their own win rate, but for construction, it's pretty typical that maybe you'd have a 30 percent win rate.
That would be pretty good, right?
If you're up against three firms and you win your share, you know, you're going to lose 60 to 70 percent of the time.
That's a lot of losing, and so you can't let it go too much to your heart.
And I don't want to weaken anyone's competitive drive because I think it serves you well, but just realizing and keeping your head up about how good the competition is and kind of paying attention to all of those other elements and being more realistic that you all are going to give it everything you can, but there are some things that are just beyond your control, some relationships that you're not aware of, even something as simple as a very small percentage of the fee can take that win away.
So don't cry when you lose.
I have done that.
I don't do that anymore.
It's a rule.
That's good.
Let's see.
Yeah, I'm against crying over the keyboard.
There's just something very, I don't know, it's a sad image.
I think it was just an outlet of caring so much.
That's the thing, caring so much and seeing the team work so hard.
And actually, I'm sure that's probably what kept me in AEC, was working with such talented, smart people and seeing what they were actually going to do, which was build a massive skyscraper or a hospital.
I was so impressed by what they were doing.
I just wanted to help on that first step of getting the work.
And now I just realized that there's a lot of work.
There's a lot of work for everyone.
Even as strong as my team is, I know that the competition has really nice, wonderful people also who are being proposed, and they're really good too.
And I do strongly believe that it all works out in the end.
So we don't have to get so caught up.
It does.
I'm not someone who's ever gotten so emotionally invested in a project that I've cried that we've lost.
I've definitely, there's been pursuits that I've put a lot of energy into, and I'll kind of get that, oh, God, we put so much time into that.
But I think for me, I've always seen it as the submitting the proposal or whatever it is that you're working on, that's the victory.
That's the win.
That's the goal.
If you get it, great.
If you don't, fine.
But I feel like if you can find a way to mentally frame it as victory is hitting the submit button, getting that confirmation, that's the win, you know?
And then you kind of go from there.
That's the win.
Frame it as if you did your best work, that's a win.
And then you just put it out of your mind.
Maybe you'll get it, maybe you won't, but you can truthfully say like, okay, we look at what we made, look at what we did, look at the teamwork that went into this.
And that's just a good way to kind of be able to look at the work that you've done and say, hey, you know, I was part of this team, we put together this proposal or this interview or whatever, and look what we did, look back at it, go through it, leaf through it with the other people who were on it and talk about what worked and what didn't.
And doing stuff like that, you can even take a loss or even a disqualification and turn it into a learning opportunity and a discussion opportunity and something that you might even be able to show off potentially for awards or testimonials for other clients.
Here's what we can do kind of stuff.
Yeah, it's never a failure if you learn something.
And I think we always learn something or develop something.
One of the stories that came to mind as we were thinking about tips and things that we would share with our younger self, I definitely recall being in my first or second year in the industry.
And it must have been the first year because I was going out to a job site for one of the first times, right?
Putting on the way too big safety vest and figuring out how the hard hat can like tighten down and getting all that stuff done and going out on a tour.
And there were a bunch of people from the office.
So a lot of, you know, like the non-construction field professionals out there.
And I was very impressed and maybe a little bit inspired by the questions that they were asking of the superintendent and the foreman and the people who are out there working.
And at all levels of the company, obviously, you know, the more senior people, of course, are pretty knowledgeable about the whole process.
But even some people that I thought maybe would have had that knowledge were asking questions, you know, being comfortable saying things that maybe I would have thought like, I don't know, can I ask this question?
Am I going to look bad in front of my team because I don't know that?
But it was this really nice thing that the barrier was like lowered.
And I realized that it was acceptable to ask these questions about like, why would that be done?
We're not even asking a technical question because we don't have enough knowledge to even ask that.
But then you get the technical answer like, well, here is why.
Here's the concrete is curing at this rate or whatever it might be so that you could learn something from it.
And I think if I would have maybe gone on one of those tours on my own, I would have had no questions.
I would have been like, oh, this is so great.
I'm so impressed.
But, you know, going out with other people who were not afraid to ask things and dig into it and kind of learn a bit more about like, why are we doing that was pretty influential in my career.
So I definitely recommend people get out there and don't be afraid to figure out, why is this happening?
What's special about that?
Becky, have you been on a ton of job sites?
Are you, is that all old?
No, I always find a way to weasel out of it.
But I have been on a few.
I have been on a few.
And I, you know, I understand being nervous to ask a question of somebody who's out there working.
And here we come interrupting their day.
Now they have to show us around.
It can be very intimidating.
But I've found that when you do ask those questions, more often than not, they're so happy to tell you.
Oh, yeah.
They're excited to tell you.
They can't wait because they've been working so hard on this and they haven't had the chance to tell anybody about this thing that they did or this technique they figured out.
And oh, hey, here's what Freddie did.
He saved us a ton of time by like doing the windows like that.
They can't wait to tell you those success stories and show off what they're working on.
And then you as a marketing person are not only learning about what they're doing, but you can kind of take that information and distill it into great social media posts.
Like, here's some interesting stories from the job site.
That's a lot of good stuff that you can kind of glean from those conversations that show and tell about your work that you're doing.
Melissa kind of added in one of her thoughts, and I think it relates to this, is like taking every opportunity to learn what your firm does, like actually what they do and how they do their work, so that you can just really understand ultimately the why, so that you can communicate the why in your proposals or your marketing pieces.
So she was just saying, if they're offering a site to her, maybe it's not a project you're working on, but it's like in advance of a proposal, you want to go and look at the site, what's going on there?
What is the team considering?
And then you get in the inner workings of how they're going to solve the challenges and hear them brainstorm and figure out and even go back and forth, do the real problem-solving and then that perspective for the marketer is pretty amazing.
Yeah, don't be afraid to ask and then for Melissa to go out there and jump in the car.
Unless you're Becky, yes, you'll stay back in the office.
Yeah, stay home.
The rest of us will be jumping in the van, trying to get a field trip and some lunch out of.
That is, you do get lunch.
You very often get lunch.
That is an excellent point, Wendy.
That reminds me of actually something that Grace Takehara, one of our Pursuit Specialists, shared when we were having this conversation, which was along the lines of talking to people in the field who may not know anything about marketing.
Instead of going to those people who are out on the projects and saying, hey, we're trying to put together a social media campaign and we need to talk about, that's not going to get through to them a lot of the time, but asking them, what are you working on?
What cool things have been happening?
What's Freddie doing with his windows?
That's saving time and money.
You can use that to sort of weave into the things that you do have expertise in.
So Grace said, attention first time marketers, you have something to share.
Even if it feels overwhelming, like learning the industry ins and outs and you're not sure where to start, share what you do know, whether that's studying and enhancing the firm's branding, which is an important skill that a lot of us bring to the table that a lot of people in the industry know nothing about, whether that's offering photography, another fantastic thing that kind of makes the world go around, ideas to enrich the firm's culture.
You've got this fresh and energized take on your firm's marketing and operations, which can be invaluable and again, does not come from within the industry.
You're bringing that outside perspective and sharing things that may not even already be talked about.
If you might have the wackiest idea in the world, what if we started doing Instagram reels and they may look at you as if what does that even mean?
That is a chance for you to open up a conversation and get that kind of, hey, there are things that I do know about, again, positioning yourself as someone to be listened to, which can again, bolster your confidence.
That sounds so much like Grace.
She's such a go-getter and she would be like, hey, we should try this.
What about this?
And she's like, I'll go do it.
That's amazing.
And that's good energy to have in your team.
And it definitely feels like there's an opportunity when you have a new team member, or if it's you being the first year in AEC marketing that you're going to be full of those ideas you don't even realize them.
You just have to say them out loud and then impress all the people around you.
Because we've been looking at too many RFPs.
Thanks, Grace.
That's awesome.
And then we have a late breaking teams chat comment from Alison Tivnon.
And she just says that, I know, this is like real time podcast detail coming in here, but she just says that she wished she would have spent less time putting people on pedestals, feeling like maybe she was intimidated or worried about what they were thinking.
And she's like emphasizing things that we've said at the start of the podcast, but that there's a certain amount of making it up as you go, and everyone is learning every day, and none of us are going to be the experts on everything.
So once you can set those preconceived ideas aside, you can start to connect with people more personally, and have better conversations that helps improve your writing and storytelling, and getting to the good stuff for the pursuit and marketing stuff.
So anyway, I like that.
Don't put the people on the pedestal so that you're so far away that you're not kind of getting to learn from them, and feeling like you can have a conversation.
You're part of the team, and I'm sure are very valued.
So get in there with them and make that connection.
So thanks, Ellison.
Thanks to the whole Middle of Six team.
Becky, you put that out in the chat, and there was a flood of ideas, so many comments.
I guess people felt pretty passionate about it.
So that's awesome.
Yeah, it's a weird position to be in.
There's no other industry quite like this, especially when it comes to marketing.
I mean, just even the hard skills that you're using, you know, in design, long documents, that's not something you see in a lot of other industries in the world.
So coming in as this new person who knows nothing about what you're doing, who is doing something that no one else in the company even knows how to do, and, you know, trying to sell yourself is a daunting prospect.
And I can certainly see being intimidated by the people you work with, by the people who are sort of looking over your shoulder and may or may not know what the heck you're doing.
And I'm wondering what would I tell someone who is in that position where they were too nervous to talk to the senior PM that they're working with or the people in the field that they're going on those job sites with?
How do you get over that sort of intimidation?
And I love that Ellison put it as, don't put them on a pedestal.
That's just, I don't know.
I genuinely wonder what would we tell somebody to kind of get over that fear of interacting with the intimidating people?
Yeah, I don't know.
Just remembering that they are people too.
They are husbands and wives and brothers and sisters.
They're people.
And I think that, again, that construction background for me, my experience is so rooted in that.
I've been intimidated by some of those superintendents out there.
They look pretty gruff.
They're used to yelling across the construction site.
But I think that, I mean, 99 percent of the time, they are just wonderful, teddy bear grandpa-like people that I end up just adoring once I get to know them.
And that's just one little group of people.
But I would imagine that there's just something pretty wonderful about everyone on the team.
And what I've learned from sitting in the middle of sixth seat where I get to work with lots of different teams is I'm just so impressed by the talent and the hardworking, huge work ethics of teams across the industry.
So, I don't know, I guess I've just met hundreds and hundreds of them now and I have nothing bad to say.
So, that's my proof that get to know them.
They're great people.
Well, Becky, I feel like we have to wrap it up, but I could tell we could talk about this forever.
Maybe someday we'll ask the team again.
And now that they've had more time to think about it, they'll have a hundred other tips that we can share on the podcast.
I want to try, if I can possibly summarize this really fast, we'll see if I can.
Some of the tips that you share it and I share it, and we share it on behalf of the team, as a new to AEC marketer, things to keep in mind as you're starting your career in AEC is that you don't have to be ashamed of not being an AEC expert.
Not a lot of us are, we're all learning all the time, and you can speak up, ask questions, that might bring a new perspective to the team, a fresh perspective, it might point out a mistake or an error that someone else couldn't see.
It might just help you learn more about the process and about what your company is doing.
So have a voice and lean into that.
It can be competitive, but not so competitive that you end up crying at work.
And if you cry too much, that's a warning sign that something needs to change.
There's no crying in AEC marketing.
Well, there might be.
There might be, but we're going to try to keep that to a minimum.
That was all really good stuff.
Thank you for thinking of this and for sharing your experience.
I really appreciate it.
And if anyone else has tips that they want to share, send them in to us at theshortlistatmiddleofsix.com because we would love to compile more tips.
That would be so fun to just read off all of your listener tips that you want to share.
Since Becky and I both are of construction backgrounds, we need some more perspectives in that too.
All right.
Thanks for joining us, Becky.
We'll see you on the next one.
Thanks for having me.
Are you crying?
No.
Are you crying?
Are you crying?
That's not crying.
There's no crying in AEC marketing.
The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six and hosted by me, Wendy Simmons, Principal Marketing Strategist.
Our producer is Kyle Davis with Digital Marketing and Graphic Design by the team at Middle of Six.
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Until next time, keep on hustling.
Bye.
Bye.
The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.