Project managers (PMs) have many demands on their time, making the development of project-specific content for a pursuit challenging. As an AEC marketer, if you can get a new PM up-to-speed on marketing systems and the proposal process—and in turn, understand their role and workload—it will make for a smoother workflow and hopefully a winning pursuit! In Episode 31, Principal Melissa Richey and Pursuit Strategist Grace Takahara join host Wendy Simmons to share suggestions for new (or not-so-new) PMs on how to avoid writer's block, what areas of a proposal to focus their time and energy on, and how we can both help each other be successful.
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Podcast Transcript
Welcome to The Shortlist.
We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.
I'm your host, Wendy Simmons, and each episode, I'll be joined by some of my team members from Middle of Six to answer your questions.
Today, we have two guests from the Middle of Six team, Melissa Richey, Principal Marketing Strategist, and Grace Takahara, Pursuit Strategist.
They're here to talk about what every marketer wants a new, or not so new, project manager to know.
Welcome, Melissa and Grace.
Hi, everyone.
Hello.
Since the two of you have worked together for several years, even before joining Middle of Six and probably worked on dozens and dozens of pursuits, I thought we could start by having you two reintroduce yourself to our listeners.
And Grace, you're new to the team, so maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you got your start in AEC and your work in competitive pursuits.
Yeah.
So I started in the AEC industry as a new college grad, had no introduction or familiarity with the realm of AEC marketing.
And so was really introduced to my first position as a marketing assistant and was at an architecture firm and from there just grew and learned so much about this world of proposals and learning all the acronyms.
And so it was just from there went and worked for a multi-discipline engineering and design firm where I met Melissa.
We worked together and from there, that experience really blossomed.
And working from federal pursuits to public and private pursuits, there's just so many different nuances to each of those different proposal approaches.
When you were in school, was it on your radar to go into AEC?
Did you even know what that was?
No, I didn't know the world of AEC marketing, that it was kind of niche and I didn't have that industry knowledge in college, that there's even this kind of realm of marketing.
And so it was all new to me once I graduated from school.
I did get a business degree with a marketing concentration, but yeah, that was not on my radar at all.
So it was a lot of learning as I went and just getting to know the different nuances of architecture engineering and general contracting as I was in the position.
So it was a lot of living and learning in the moment for sure.
And you've stuck with it.
Some people test out AEC and kind of decide if it's their vibe.
What do you love most about working in AEC?
I think that it was a great place to start being in an architecture firm because I did have that passion for design.
So it was kind of this unique culmination of marketing and then getting to work with these design professionals that have such a great eye for things.
So that was partly, you know, there's kind of this bridge of design with business, which I really enjoyed.
And then also, it's such a people-oriented position.
Being in marketing, you're so collaborative with teams and with people.
And I've always enjoyed that.
And also, there's always something to learn from working with such a variety of different clients to different, you know, working from in-house engineering to architecture.
There's just always something to learn.
So that's always been something that's kept me engaged and interested is there's there's no end of new ways to approach something or something to learn.
And so it's been really great in that way.
That's so true.
I can see this, the how that sparks, you know, your creativity and you're up for the challenge of learning the people, the players, how can we tell the story better either in the written form or graphically, it really kind of encompassed all of those, that really well-rounded AEC marketer.
So I'm glad that you're in the biz with us.
We love working with you and thank you, Melissa, for making this introduction to Grace.
You too have worked on, I mean, I did countless proposals, so many teams.
What would you add to all that, Melissa?
Well, one of the first things is just, I think Grace was really fortunate.
The firm she worked for has a culture that really, you can do anything you're willing to try.
So she's a go-getter.
And so she took advantage of that.
And so I remember when I first met her, I was like, oh, this is one of those unicorns.
Yeah, I got to keep in contact with her.
So I was thankful that she came and worked with me and then came to Middle of Six.
So it's been super fun collaborating with Grace on Pursuits.
She's got a great eye for design and a great eye for strategy and is great with people.
So we had a lot of fun working together, whether it was doing the strategy together, and then she did all the heavy lifting, and maybe I just did a QC to then working together on the interview.
So it's been a super fun collaborative process, and it's great to see her kind of continuing that same level of excellence here at Middle of Six.
Yeah, we were just chatting yesterday, and Grace mentioned how part of what your role that you see is, is providing kind of like calmness in the stressful environment.
Like we're on deadlines, your project teams are juggling a lot of things, and their worlds are very stressful.
And so you as a marketer is taking on this role of making it easier for them, and bringing just kind of this chill vibe that we've got it, we've got it under control, we're here to help, and that sort of thing.
And it's fun to see that from that side, and definitely recommend all marketers, if you can embrace that kind of calm presence.
I think you get back a nice vibe from your own internal teams as they're running around with their hair on fire and dealing with a bunch of stuff.
Wow, thanks so much for the kind words, Melissa and Wendy.
I'm so happy to be a part of the Middle of Six team and just inspired by all that you do.
So thanks so much.
So Grace, it's really awesome to have you here, both you and Melissa to kick off season two of The Shortlist.
I think we have a fantastic topic today, which is what every marketer wants a new PM or project manager to know, to kind of help the whole marketing and pursuit process work well.
And we have several topics under this umbrella.
So today we're just going to focus in very narrowly on writing to win.
We'll cover other topics that are related to this, you know, sharing best practices for project managers.
But today we'll just kind of try our very, very best to focus on writing to win.
Melissa or Grace, why did you pick this topic?
Why did you think this kind of rose to the top as something we should kick off The Shortlist with?
I think with the energy of a new year, you're thinking about what pursuits you're going to go after.
There's a lot of new energy and excitement.
So maybe someone just got a promotion to a project manager and they're going to be new to working with the marketing team.
I think it's under the guise of help me help you.
If we both can understand where the other person's coming from, what demands you're under, I think it makes for a more enjoyable experience in the long run.
So on the topic of writing, what are some of the warning signs that your PM is not writing to win?
I think that taking a look at successful pursuits is helpful for setting a foundation, but it shouldn't be the North Star or what you're directing your content to replicate or mirror.
I know that sometimes we can be pinched for time, but in cases where I see an approach that looks almost identical to a past pursuit that isn't targeted to the specific scope or needs of the client, that can be an alert to say, hey, let's invest some more time into this content to make it more relevant and specific to this client and their needs.
Like I said, I think that an approach from the past that's been successful is a helpful foundation or a starting point to get over that hurdle of a blank white word document.
But that can be a red flag for me if I'm seeing something that could be elevated or made more specific to a client.
And I think another one is starting to see some of those avoidant behaviors where you've got to check in and there, I haven't started or I've been too busy.
It's human nature that if you don't want to do something, you're going to find all the other things in the world that you could do.
So if you're not getting updates or not getting any content, that's a clue that things might not even, they're not writing to win because they're not writing anything yet.
Yeah, very, very true.
So how do you have some strategies or things that have proven successful in the past to help when you notice that avoidant behavior or you're getting just the exact same cover letter from the last proposal or something that they said they were going to work on and they're not really doing it?
What are your tips for helping gently guide them to be more successful and targeted?
Having a conversation that can be offline or one-on-one, I think is really helpful.
It doesn't have to be in front of the whole pursuit team.
Just understanding where that person's at, how you can support them.
Just remembering that we're working with people and relationships matter.
And just knowing that, again, to Melissa's point earlier, we're here to help you and vice versa.
So I think that really trying to talk with them, try to dig up some nuggets to at least get the ball rolling on some more compelling content is a really helpful place to start.
Yeah, I think another good tip is to let the project manager know, I don't need you to write in perfect long sentences, perfect prose, you can give me bullets.
We can sit down in the conference room and we can just talk through the project and I will take notes and I'll write something for you to look at.
Just letting people know you're not expecting perfection is a kind of load off their back.
I always see smiles and head nodding and happiness when we say, you know, if we could just get four or five bullet points, we'll flesh it out as a starting point.
You can review, you know, let them kind of do the quick download of what's what's top of mind for them and, you know, let us worry about the wordsmithing, which is a little bit easier.
It's our focus area for sure.
Yeah, I've said let's pull up an aerial of the site and you just talk me through what you see here.
What are the issues?
What are the things that have you scratching your head about how you're going to approach this project?
And sometimes it is just taking that minute to stop and think, like, how am I going to do this project?
What is what else do I need to know to write an approach?
Am I stumped because I don't know enough information about the project?
Do we need to pull up some old records?
You're just trying to be helpful.
And how can we get you to understand the project better so you can more easily tell us how you're going to approach the project?
To distinguish yourself or differentiate yourself, you know, it doesn't have to be like Melissa was saying.
It doesn't have to be super polished.
I think that, you know, realizing that there's real people reading these proposals, like, let's have a little fun with that content, too.
And it doesn't have to be super rigid.
And I think that that also can be kind of a helpful reminder that that maybe spark some writing, that it doesn't have to be perfect.
It needs to be approachable, though.
That's a really good tip and nice to reinforce that.
I was just reviewing a proposal.
It's like so fresh in my mind that the content was so polished.
And I could tell there is not a typo in the whole thing.
It was perfect.
But I realized, like, oh, this is kind of a little boring.
You know, it feels too perfect.
I just wanted a little more personality or something that feels like, we're working through this challenge.
We've got this thing.
We don't have the perfect answer.
But here's what we're going to consider.
And so, you know, that's just like that's the feedback.
You can have a perfectly written paragraph, but maybe it's not actually going to engage with your audience much.
So I don't know if that helps the PM know that we just want to hear right from them.
What are the concerns?
What are you going to do?
What challenges are you going to be looking at?
And then it can turn into something really magical in the proposal.
Yeah, I've seen our team on the last couple of pursuits writing some pretty kind of funny, comical subheads or headlines that if the panel is not reading every word, but they're getting, they're like, oh, that's kind of funny.
Maybe I do want to read this section.
So I think infusing a little humor, if that goes with the style of your team and firm, can go a long way in making a proposal more interesting to read.
Yeah.
And having, like you were saying, developing that relationship with the PM, then you're hopefully, as the marketer, understanding their personality and what will show well when they go into the interview stage.
Just introducing that a little bit, the human element of it can help make the writing a little less dry and also probably more fun for that project manager to be part of that pursuit.
And they feel like it's something that reflects them.
Okay.
So it feels like it goes one of two ways.
Either you get nothing, there's avoidance behavior, it's down to the wire and then you get way too much information at the end that might just be boilerplate chopped up all together or you get nothing, right?
So what happens when you just get just piles and piles of content?
Some of it is maybe shreds of it are good, a lot of it's not targeted at all.
There could be cut and paste from other proposals, so there's bad information in there.
What do you do with that when your PM delivers a novel for your two-page approach section?
Scream.
I don't even have time to read all this, let alone edit it down to four paragraphs here.
That was a joke, but I mean, I've certainly screamed inside my head before.
It's so common.
It's happened to everyone.
And the BM is trying their best with what they have and pulled in many directions, but after you scream quietly.
Yeah, in all seriousness, once I go, oh gosh, okay, it is, let's go have a conversation.
Okay, I've read this, it's really long, panels are pressed for time, they're getting a lot of submittals, so they're not going to read all this.
So let's take a bit step back and try and find a little formula that works a little better, like, okay, talk to me.
What are the three key issues on this project?
And how are you going to solve them?
And that gets the project manager thinking about the project, doing what they do.
They manage projects.
What are the risks on the projects?
What are the opportunities?
What are the unknowns that we need to dig into once you win the project?
And I think just having that kind of more one-on-one type of conversation where you get asked them to tell you more about the project, you're probably starting over.
You're going to take some notes as they're talking.
You're going to rewrite something and give it to them.
And they're going like, oh, wow, this is all I had to write.
I mean, I feel like that's always the reaction when I get pages and pages of prose and then we take it down.
They're like, oh, wow, you didn't really need all of that.
She's like, no, we didn't.
Yeah.
Grace, you do a lot of storyboards, building out storyboards as a pursuit strategist.
So that's like kind of our internal first step.
It's probably a lot of teams.
First step is just like mapping out the proposal.
Do you find that that is helpful in communicating kind of like the amount of information or is there anything related to that process?
Yeah, definitely.
I think that the team starts to get a feeling for just how much word count we have per page.
That is really helpful to kind of frame that approach right up to make sure that it's scaled appropriately.
Then also I think that the storyboard, we tend to try to at least create high level call outs too in our storyboards that kind of help the team start to think about, all right, in that approach section, maybe we can break out some of these points into lessons learned, for example, as a call out.
And so there's opportunities within that storyboard to get the team thinking a little bit more creatively about how that information can be presented and reinforced by client testimonials, like I said, lessons learned.
I think that the storyboard can really provide a valuable step in the right direction to keep that approach language feeling less general and more specific.
Added benefit to the storyboard is that there's that visual component at the same time.
So selfishly as marketers, we're blocking out a third or a half of the page for a graphic wherever possible.
We know that we have to balance, you have to be able to tell the story and be compelling in that way.
But I think that's helpful to say like, oh, this case study is going to take up a quarter of the page here.
And the case study is mostly a graphic plus a really punchy caption and blurb.
So by storyboarding it out, I think that reduces the pressure and stress on the PM side, on your technical subject matter experts, because like, oh, I can do this.
I can write three sentences on the challenge, and I definitely can write four sentences on how we'll mitigate that risk.
Yeah, and I think for people that are more visual learners, like our architects, our landscape architects, seeing that storyboard with things blocked out does really help solidify in their mind, oh, this is, oh, I've got the perfect photo from another project that can fill this top third of the page.
What about if your PM doesn't, hasn't done their homework, or I guess, I don't know if that's the right way to say it exactly, but part of their writer's block, no matter how well you set them up or interviewed them, is that they don't know enough about the project, or they just cannot get their mind clear on what matters most to the client.
Do you have any experience dealing with that and helping them through that process?
I've definitely experienced that, and that's a time where I take a bigger role in the writing and the research.
So for instance, if the project's in a certain area that's covered by a sub area plan, I get out the sub area plan, and I start reading it and talking through that, and maybe offer to write the project understanding, kind of set the foundation for what the project's about, and then they can get into the more technical aspects of roadway design or whatever the project may be.
But that's one strategy I've used is just try and be more helpful by doing more of the writing and doing more of that research because I have more time to do that than a project manager who's under lots of different demands for their time.
I'm always impressed how much marketing can really help.
It's just understanding what our internal teams need.
And obviously, we don't want to take the lead when it would be better and even more targeted content if they can be bringing it to us.
But when you get in that, almost you're at a stalemate here, it's wonderful when you have a strong marketing team that can start writing and doing some research and it's like those seeds help the PM get further along in their process.
Whenever I do that, I do flag that for the project manager that when we make the shortlist and you have to go to the interview, you've got to spend the time to get up to speed.
Because if I've done all this research and did all this writing, it's in my head, but it's not in your head.
Yeah.
I'm not going to the interview with you.
So I do make a point to say, okay, you've got to get up to speed.
So that's your commitment between the date we turn in and the date we go to interviews.
You've got to get up to speed on all of this information.
Since we've all done just dozens and dozens of pursuits in our career, just curious if there's any that stick out in your mind as being super memorable or really successful when you and the PM were collaborating effectively.
Definitely.
I think that this echoes what we've been saying about having that close collaboration with our project managers and technical team, but the pursuits that stand out the most, that was driving the project or the pursuit, and it just enriched the whole process.
So one that comes to mind is one for, that was a partnership for Tacoma Public Schools and Trust for Public Lands, and it was for creating green school yards for several different Tacoma Elementary schools.
And the landscape architecture team that I was working with, from the principal to the project manager, there was just such a level of commitment to finding local consultants to engage, engaging local artists that we were suggesting, and it just was such a collaborative and passionate pursuit.
And I think it really showed.
Those types of pursuits just come to mind, the ones where there is just everybody bringing their ideas and there's a safe space to share ideas.
And really, I think, engaging and tapping into that passion of the team comes through every time.
And maybe that helps inform some go-no-go decisions, you know?
For me, one of the most satisfying, memorable pursuits that I've ever worked on was just when my project team was so well-positioned, it felt like they were on the inside.
You know, obviously, I don't want to name any names, but as a competitive marketing person, having so much detail about the client's preferences, their personality, how they like to meet, and how they like to communicate.
I mean, this sounds so obvious and even maybe a little bit general, just saying this generically, but when you are writing a cover letter or you are talking about the approach and how you are going to go and meet in a certain conference room and use the big whiteboard, and you maybe even have pictures of that happening with that client, I feel just energized because I think, oh, we've got this.
We're already on their team.
We're just showing them how we're going to do it for this next project.
So to me, when I've had the opportunity to be that well positioned with the team, I love it and it gets me very excited to flow every part of the process out of the water.
We're unstoppable.
Those are definitely the ones that we all aspire to and make the ones where maybe someone's not so well positioned.
You're like, well, maybe the next one is going to be that awesome one where we got it in the bag.
Something we haven't talked about and maybe this would have been right at the very top of the podcast, but as we've talked through how PMs can have trouble writing or really need our help, and we're developing a relationship, there's probably something about their knowledge and understanding if they're a new PM in that role.
What are the marketing processes?
How can they work well with the things that we have established?
That could include what we have in our databases.
How do we collect the stories and case studies?
There's lots of things like that.
Melissa, Grace, anything top of mind for you about what you would want to communicate to a new PM when they're really getting introduced to marketing systems?
Well, it's exciting to be able to work with a new PM and be able to start getting acquainted, getting them acquainted with marketing processes.
It's like a new chapter for them.
And so I think that really trying to establish that relationship I think is so key at the beginning.
And then also to your point, Wendy, just about the different steps of the marketing process.
Maybe they were introduced before they were promoted to a project manager, but talking about the pre-positioning, the BD, and then also go-no-go decisions.
And just really trying to reiterate to this new project manager the keys to what helps differentiate an SOQ, because once we say that a pursuit's a go, that's an investment that the firm's making.
And just establishing that with the PM that we can really make informed decisions that are strategic through marketing processes, I think establishing that with them is pretty important and vital.
And I'll add to that, I think, a little bit of helping them understand the competitive environment.
I learned probably midpoint in my career that I have to let the project manager know, I'm not saying that I don't think you can design this project.
I know you can, but being able to do the work and being able to win the work are two different things.
So I think one of those great pieces of information marketing can share is what the competitive landscape looks like.
Okay, the last time this client put out a RFQ with a similar scope of work, they got 15 submittals and here's all the other firms that went after it.
And that's pretty eye opening to someone who hasn't been involved in the pursuit process because I think on the surface like, oh, well, of course I can design a sewer line.
I do that every day.
But winning the works a whole different ball game.
So kind of putting a perspective of what the competition looks like and what it's going to take to win is pretty eye opening and important.
Yeah, some of that can be and should be discussed in the pre-positioning and go no go.
But it's not too late to dig into that during the pursuit kickoff and just make sure that everyone is going into the effort, going into the pursuit with their head up and their eyes open to what is the competition, what's it really going to take to win.
And I think depending on the structure of your firm, your principal in charge, your project manager or proposal manager, they all have slightly different roles on how they're rallying the team to like put in the effort and to make time for a pursuit.
Just orienting a PM to what role they'll play in providing that energy to create a winning pursuit.
That feels like a very soft side, a soft conversation to have, but probably an important one.
Laying out the time commitments.
Okay, we're going to go after this.
It's going to take this many hours all together of that.
It's probably going to be 30% you, project manager doing writing, attending meetings.
Then if we get to the shortlist, there's interview prep.
What's your schedule look like over the next month?
Is that something that you can commit to?
Because marketing is going to be beside you along the way and definitely do a lot of the lifting, but it's a teamwork, so we have to all have the capacity to do a good job.
And I hate to say it, but let me know if you disagree.
But I feel like most PMs or people who are leading a pursuit effort, they're writing this content not during eight to five hours.
It's hard to carve out time to sit in front of your computer, unless you're a dedicated marketing person.
You know, when you've got a million project emails coming through and meetings that you cannot miss, so they are probably getting up early to write some content or doing research in the evenings or reviewing things on the weekends.
That is sort of the reality of when you are running a project.
There's not a lot of time.
Yeah.
Checking that vacation schedule, are you going to be on vacation for this pursuit time?
And if you are, you should be able to have that time off.
I understand the commitment when sometimes people make some exceptions for their vacation and can appreciate that, but we also like maybe that is a time to no go something if your team cannot be fully involved.
What are your chances if someone's having to fit in their work or an interview between travel?
It's challenging.
Or can we videotape you before you go on vacation?
Are you willing to do that if you're not going to be here for the interview?
Videotape?
I'm showing my age.
Videotape.
Yeah.
Well, we have a listener question from over our hiatus, and this felt like a really good one related to the PM topic here.
So their question is, I have PMs ask for a sample approach, and it's burned us a couple of times because they get inaccurate information from an old proposal, and you're on a deadline, you're expecting good content.
What do you do with that?
I'm certain both of you have had that experience happen.
What would you recommend?
I think that marketing can help drive that review and that revision of the sample approach.
Like I said, I think that that can help people overcome writer's block to have a place to start.
I think that marketing can maybe take a step in reviewing that sample approach, pulling out the information that seems applicable to the pursuit at hand, trying to highlight ways that that approach can be elevated like to points that we made earlier, you know, asking some questions that may help make that approach more specific to the pursuit at hand.
So I think that there's there's ways that marketing can be proactive in that situation and also be efficient with time.
Yeah, before you send over any sort of sample or go by scrubbing information out of it, if there's a whole section about permitting, don't give them all that because that's one that's burned me where it had permitting that wasn't applicable to the project and we didn't know we were marketers, we're not developers.
You're not a permit expediter, Melissa?
Come on.
No.
Right.
Yeah.
And it can be the approach section should be really, really targeted.
That's where I would want the team to focus most of their energy.
And it is nice for them to not be staring at a blank screen and thinking, I have to fill this all in.
So again, back to the storyboard option is providing some guidelines, but whittling it down or maybe giving them some prompts or referencing the questions to make sure that we're flagging that we use pink or cyan or something to kind of flag when we want them to pay special attention to just, it's not going to come back exactly in this format.
It really needs to be reworked based on the questions in the RFP and also specifically what's going to matter to that client.
So maybe inserting our own little marketing notes and ideas in there could help make sure they're scrubbing it a little bit more completely too.
I think you have to be vigilant in asking for setting those deadlines and asking for the content with enough times for marketing to do the review is ultimately the way you can stop or eliminate being burned from getting bad content or inaccurate content.
So to answer that listener's question, I guess not letting it get down to the very, very last minute, the 11th hour, so that you do have time, preserving time for that final QC and following up or asking those strategic questions when you're like, is this accurate?
Does this make sense for this?
Is this really going to be how that plays out?
And marketers don't have time to do that if they are throwing it in to the final, final draft, you know, for people to review.
That's all really, really good stuff.
Maybe we can just kind of do an overview of some of our top suggestions or best practices, you know, that you would recommend.
Just as a kind of quick overview for our listeners here.
It sounds like understanding that PMs are super busy is a key component.
So anything that we can do to sort of help them, guide them, take something off their plate.
We talked about a bunch of things, bulleting out or interviewing them or orienting them with the site and kind of downloading.
That's a key element of helping make sure the writing is really targeted and ready to win.
What else, Grace, Melissa, you want to add in there for best practices?
Being clear about deadlines and what the time commitment involved will be, I like to use the word risk when I talk to project managers, because that's their job, is to manage risk.
So if we don't get this by this date, there's a risk we're not going to make the deadline.
And these are hard deadlines.
We don't get to ask for an extension.
It is either in on time or it is not.
And if it's not, we're not considered for the project.
Yeah, we talked about it multiple times now, but the storyboard being key to, you know, setting up the project mindset and pursuit mindset for the team.
And so the storyboard can really provide a helpful aid both for length of content, but then also just starting to get the team thinking a little bit more strategically about some certain content.
And we use this tactic a lot at Middle of Six is to just give frequent updates and sending out a PDF.
Here's where we're at.
It gives a good opportunity for the marketing team to provide a quick bullet list of some top items that are needed.
I usually don't even worry about the little things.
I just kind of always am thinking about what's the most important detail.
And I don't mind sending out one of those drafts every other day, you know, kind of depends on the length of the pursuit, but just keeping everyone in the loop and communicating commitments that people said that they would do and not waiting for, you know, a certain draft milestone to come up, to be able to kind of keep this top of mind for your whole team.
I think the importance of explaining that you don't need perfect writing, that bullet points, sentence fragments are perfectly acceptable and something that your marketing team can work with to dial in the approach.
Just remembering that we're all people and we're all working together and we're a team.
So I think that an important thing to remember as a marketer is, it's about relationships and where I've had a lot of success in my career is coming together.
And also just being open to listening to a little tidbit that somebody may say in a meeting that may spark an idea, you know, maybe following up with them.
And that may bloom into something, you know, great.
That may be a pillar of the pursuit or messaging of a SOQ.
So I think that, yeah, just being open and in a really team-oriented space is really helpful to remind yourself, we're all in it together, we're all pressing towards that deadline and the more fun that we can have through the experience, I think that you tend to have a better result.
Yeah, that's great.
Maybe we'll just kind of wrap it up there.
You know, Melissa started this conversation off with the like, help me help you.
And I do think that that is the mentality of the marketer.
We do want to make it easier for our teams.
We want to win, you know, and part of that is allowing them to focus on their current job and do that great work and also provide enough information for us to help them create a really compelling story and help tell that story for the firm.
So that's what we're all in it for.
And I am sure that marketers do remember that PMs have so many demands on their time.
They're buried.
We're here to help.
And realizing that we're all humans can kind of make that process just a little bit more pleasurable through the whole thing.
So thanks, Grace and Melissa, for sharing your thoughts.
I really hope this is helpful for both marketers and project managers and aspiring project managers to kind of know how we can all work well together.
And we're going to come back to this topic, and we're going to focus on graphics and technical content and pre-positioning and so many other things where the PM plays a major role in getting that win.
Thanks so much for being here.
Awesome to chat with you and Grace.
Great job on your first podcast and kicking off The Shortlist season two.
Oh my goodness, this was so fun.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it was great to get back in the saddle again.
The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six and hosted by me, Wendy Simmons, Principal Marketing Strategist.
Our producer is Kyle Davis, with digital marketing and graphic design by the team at Middle of Six.
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The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.