Love them or loathe them, the virtual interview format is here to stay. While we advocate for the in-person interview above all others, we are thrilled to bid farewell to the dreaded phone interview, and see genuine value in the current virtual hybrid that allows team members and project partners alike to contribute and engage with the interview panel. In this episode, Wendy Simmons and Melissa English discuss the technical, physical, and emotional components of virtual interviews—from the challenges and opportunities in establishing connection through a video screen, to the digital leave-behinds that keep your team top of mind. Cameras on!
CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 4
Podcast Transcript
Welcome to The Shortlist.
We're exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.
I'm your host, Wendy Simmons, and each episode, I'll be joined by one of my team members from Middle of Six to answer your questions.
Today, we're chatting with Melissa English about virtual interviews.
Hey, Melissa.
Hey, Wendy.
Virtual interviews.
Did you think we'd be talking about this in 2022?
Yeah, I thought it would be a blip, but I think that the ease of getting folks together and with some workplaces continuing remote work indefinitely or a hybrid model that feels like it's here to stay.
I think you are right.
And we've asked this question to universities, owners' reps, school districts, our clients, I mean, all kinds of folks, and you get a very mixed bag of answers, which leads me to believe, yes, it's here to stay because people are finding value in it, even if there's some negative aspects to the virtual format, it's just too convenient and too quick and easy in a lot of ways.
So it's here, so we might as well make the best of it, right?
Right.
And one thing I've wondered is whether if folks are given the option, you can either come in person or do a Zoom interview.
I was just on a pursuit that that was what the client said.
Is that going to be another subtle type of differentiator, where whether you made the trip to this remote central Washington location, or if you decided to Zoom in?
So I think it's going to start becoming another little way to differentiate your team, to show how important the client and the project is to your team.
Yeah, I just have to say, if you are given the chance, you should present in person.
Definitely.
I mean, I think presenting in person is hard, and I think it's a little bit more nerve wracking.
But I've heard from teams we've been coaching and working with that a lot of them find it better than the virtual format.
So I don't know, we can talk about that detail more.
But if you're given the choice, being able to be in person is such an easier way to make a connection, to learn about the client, see what their body language is, how they're reacting to what you're saying.
So don't miss that opportunity if you can, if you can make it happen.
Agreed.
Yeah, I definitely think in person it's easier to make a connection.
What do you think about which format is easier, virtual versus in-person?
Do you have any personal experience with that, or things you've heard from the teams you've been coaching?
Yeah, I have definitely experienced some teams getting pretty excited about it being virtual and saying things like, well, great, now I can just have my notes write up and I don't have to really totally dial in my speaking part, which I think is a warning because you don't want to be reading a script because that's going to come across.
So while you can have more visual cues and notes around you, you do need to put some thought into how you're doing that so that it doesn't look like you're reading notes and your eyes aren't flickering back and forth to somewhere off the screen.
So we can get more into the tips and tricks how to get your tech set up better.
But definitely heard a sense of relief of, I don't have to go in person.
Right.
And for some folks, if you are used to being on a job site, your foreman or superintendent, being away from your job can be challenging and very stressful.
And also, you're just not used to presenting and standing in front of a room or sitting at the end of a horseshoe table with a big panel in front of you.
That can feel intimidating, but you get the chance to be yourself and that's who they really want to meet.
So today we're going to focus on virtual interviews, even though obviously you need to be able to be prepared for both types and you don't know exactly what the future will hold.
But we're still in this virtual interview format.
So Melissa, you mentioned making connections is an important part of the interview process.
How do you do that virtually?
Do you have any suggestions on that?
A way that we started thinking about virtual interviews is kind of three different areas, the physical, the emotional and the technical.
So that would be under the physical realm of how do you emote over a video?
How do you position your body language?
What's your posture look like?
Do you have your setup so that your eyes are looking directly into the camera on your laptop?
Are you using non-verbal communication, you know, nodding and being engaged in what the rest of the team is saying?
And I think you have to lean in a little harder, and you might feel like you're giving it too much, but a little bit is lost over the video.
So being more intentional, really leaning in and looking directly in the camera is one way that you can kind of get past that virtual divide.
Yeah, isn't it funny how on a camera, if you're just even sitting back in your chair, not leaning back, but just sitting back in your chair, how you can look four feet further away for some reason.
That's like the optical illusion.
So I agree with that.
If you can sit up, be really kind of engaged into the camera, and that might mean that your elbows are on the table and you're kind of leaning in, not too far in, right?
No one wants to look up your nose, but leaning in just feels like you are really engaged.
And I think it helps you stay focused on the conversation and you just are really part of the whole presentation as opposed to waiting for your turn.
Yeah, even your kind of body language comment, maybe you have your arms crossed because you're cold, because your basement office is where you're presenting from, but that could be read as you're kind of being disapproving.
So even thinking through little things like that of how is this going to be perceived on the screen, some feedback that I've been getting from clients since we've been moving to the virtual format is interview panel members with their cameras off.
And that makes it really hard to make a physical or emotional connection, and it feels like you're speaking into the void.
So I would hope that we could have some rapport with our clients where we let them know that we really hope they'd have their cameras on so we can see them.
How do you feel about asking someone on the interview panel to make sure they have their cameras on?
Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would be brave enough to call one person out, but I might just generally say, hey, we are really excited to share our presentation with you today, and we're hoping that everyone can have their cameras on, but their microphones muted or something like that to kind of soften the blow a little bit.
But I agree, not being able to see their faces would be so challenging.
And I just immediately feel like that would create that disconnect and I wouldn't want to do it.
So show some leadership and just invite everyone to kind of join the conversation in that way.
And also that goes, I hope we don't have to say this, right?
Everyone on your team has their camera on.
There's no camera off when you're presenting.
You have to be on the entire time.
So watch your body language, even when you're not speaking, be listening to your team so that you can jump in when it's the right time and you're not misstepping in that way.
But you need to be on the stage kind of front and center and with your camera on the whole time.
Well, yes, that's one thing that I hope the virtual interview has created, the death of the phone interview.
That was the least favorite interview ever.
So I sure hope virtual interviews have killed the phone interview.
Yeah, that seems impossible.
Terrible.
It was it was rough.
When we're presenting information in a virtual interview, a lot of times you're doing screen share and then our faces get even smaller on the screen.
I want to talk through some of the pros and cons of like how to share information and doing things in a different way, maybe more interactive.
Anything in that realm?
Well, yeah, I mean, I think you bring a big point of how many little squares can get on the screen and knowing which platform Zoom versus Teams.
Zoom's a little bit more friendly to a bigger crowd, but keeping that in mind when you're picking how many people are going to the interview or how many people are on the panel.
So you kind of get an idea of like, well, if we're all going to be these tiny little heads, maybe we need to rethink that not so many people are going to go.
You mentioned screen sharing.
I think trying to balance the amount of time you have a slide deck or panel up versus the time that you're looking in the camera and presenting.
So being more thoughtful about what that looks like and bringing the slide deck down after you've kind of made the key point or the visual that's backing up, what's on the slide can be taken down as you kind of continue making your point and even how you share that screen, making sure you know how to do that on Teams versus Zoom and practicing that way.
That's kind of under the technical that you're going to want to practice on the same platform and be prepared if there's a tech failure.
So kind of thinking through those elements.
Another way I've seen some interaction happen in a virtual interview is by using a whiteboarding app like Mural.
I've seen it where almost like the presentation, almost like a slide deck is on Mural.
So you zoom in to that as kind of the intro and then we're going to get some feedback from the team and do the sticky note exercise and have that.
So you're seeing people moving around on the Mural as you're watching them on the camera doing it.
So I think there's some fun and interesting ways to involve tech in your presentation that wasn't as easy to do when we were doing in person.
So there's an upside of the virtual platform.
I remember some in-person interviews where we thought, well, we'll make this interactive and we'll have them come up and we'll have them put a sticky note here and sometimes with certain panels, you cannot get them to budge.
In fact, it can be pretty negative and that's a hard lesson to learn and it's good to know your audience and who you're talking to before you get in that situation.
But it is a little easier in the virtual format to just invite people in and even if it's kind of fake interactive because you're moving around and you're pulling their attention to certain things.
You made a good point though about practicing.
That is essential.
If you might be sharing a PowerPoint and then pulling up a really large schedule that you're going to roll up all these activities and dig into certain components and then maybe you're going to show a video.
these are all different technologies that you can present in an interview.
You need to understand how to get them up on the screen on the right screen and how to navigate those well.
Yeah, definitely, that's something you want to practice during your rehearsals because that's something that can trip you up.
Then you kind of lose your train of thought for your speaking.
So definitely practicing those transitions on the platform is a good best practice.
Yeah, and designating someone who could be the driver for that principle or project executive is a good choice because hopefully we've told them and coach them that they don't have much of a speaking role, but they get to drive the presentation and have some leadership in that way without doing all of the talking themselves.
So they can own that and then another best practice is, of course, to have a backup or two or three backups.
Other people need to have that presentation material available on their computer.
If someone's internet goes out, you want to have someone who can quickly pull that up and not have to be digging through their email or whatever.
You really want people out there ready to jump in if anything on the technology side should fail.
Yeah, I think having your phone, having Zoom and Teams app uploaded on your phone and up to date with the current version.
So if you do need to switch for some reason due to something going wrong on your computer, you've got a backup and can kind of seamlessly jump back in as quickly as possible.
I feel like people are forgiving that, you know, technology does things, but I think it's also a way for you to show that you're prepared and if you've thought of what might happen and you have a backup plan, so I think that's good to show as well.
And it's simple to have a backup plan, you know.
If you have a smartphone, you have something, you know, that you can get to, so just testing out ahead.
I like to think of every interview prep as a dress rehearsal.
We don't have any of the meetings without sort of practicing some of the components of what we're going to be presenting, whether it's people sharing drawings on their screen or, you know, marking things up, just kind of passing the baton in that way, it will get you more prepared, and so you have four or five of those, you know, under your belt with your team, and then before you go into the actual interview.
You mentioned a schedule and kind of visuals.
You also have the option to kind of send email files through the chat or direct someone to, maybe you made a page on your website to describe the schedule that's more interactive, and you can drive people there with a quick link dropped in the chat.
So kind of thinking of different and interesting ways to use the technology to your advantage for things that are complex, like a schedule that has a lot of different pieces and parts that you could zoom in on more easily.
Yeah, another benefit of the virtual format is that you can share that information easier than, remember, like bringing a giant schedule to an interview in person on a board doesn't even fit, no one can read it, you know, someone needs to mark it up so that they can actually kind of understand what these points are.
I mean, you know, that was that was fine then, but isn't it nice that we can kind of like guide people through the conversation and maybe reverse and back up and dig into another piece if someone on the panel has a question that we can answer in that way?
Right, or those virtual models that everyone's like, well, can we bring the VR goggles to the in-person interview?
Now we can just do the recording of the VR walkthrough or fly through the building and play that for everyone to watch together.
So I think there's some upsides to interviewing virtually.
Okay, Melissa, here's a hot topic, backgrounds.
What should your background be?
Should you all have the same background?
What if your logo is red?
What do you do?
Yeah, that is a question that comes up at every interview prep.
I think the default as we are starting in the virtual format was most people were wanting to have a standard branded background and then I've now encountered clients who think that I want to broadcast from what my home office looks like.
I feel like that shows part of my personality and that we're regular people and we're not too corporate.
I think there's some psychology that's going into thinking what a background at a project interview could look like.
Maybe it's an option to show some different project photography, so a subtle way to show your experience without blasting it in their face.
What have you seen, Wendy?
What I've heard is such a variety of opinions, and that's probably why folks are asking us.
That's not a great answer, but we end up really digging into like, well, what is the point?
We don't want to do something by default.
Like, yes, we just put on this branded background for every meeting, and we want to think about what are we communicating?
What sort of makes sense for this project team?
I like your point that showing how you're working from your home office, because maybe that's going to be the reality for some time for some folks to show like, hey, we're just as good remote as we would be in person, right?
I mean, that's a great message to send, although we want to be aware of, we don't want distracting backgrounds.
I mean, some things are fine, right?
And people will give a lot of grace for the casual, whatever is happening in the background.
But you want to be aware that if there's a lot of, I don't know, movement or chaos that is distracting from your presentation, we'd probably want to find or turn in a position just for that one meeting where you have a little bit more of kind of the focus on what you're presenting and less on whatever it might be that's happening in the background.
Yeah, and I think that falls under that kind of tech umbrella of making sure everyone has a good setup with good lighting.
I had an experience where one person on the team just could not get in good lighting.
So we tried to put the virtual background on their head just kept getting covered by the virtual background.
We just scrapped it because it's like, we can't have this person digitally moving in and out of the screen because we can't get a good lighting setup.
So definitely testing that out in advance to make sure it works for everyone on the team if you are going with a standardized background.
Right, or even just the gray, what do they call that?
What's the fuzzy background?
Whatever that is.
I think Teams just calls it blur.
Oh, yes.
The blur background.
I mean, that one is a culprit for taking half of a person's head off and that is distracting.
Even though we're used to seeing it, there's something about the formality and of the interview.
You don't want that to be what you're remembered for, right?
Like, oh, we only got half of that person's head.
That makes it disconnects you from the interview panel, or that's not the most important thing that you have to say, so let's not have that standout in their mind.
Probably the best background is going to be just something really simple and clean back wall of an office or of a room where there's not too much for people to kind of wander around and get lost in.
Again, keeping the focus on you and then with some light on your face really helps when you're in a hole or there's such a shadow on your face, because of the contrast, they can't see you and you look mysterious.
And again, those are all things that feel like making a disconnect rather than a connection with the panel.
As you were talking, it reminded me of an interview I recently coached for improvements at a landfill.
And one of the specialists on the team was at another landfill doing a project.
And as we were preparing, he's like, should I move inside the job shack to do the interview?
I was like, no, you should stay in your truck where we can see the front loader moving the trash in the background.
I think it is adding another element that you are the expert in this topic.
So I think that you don't forget that there are opportunities where an unconventional location that one of your team members is broadcasting from could be a subtle nod to their expertise.
Right.
And interviewing from the job shack.
If you're in the field and it makes sense that you need to be on your project site and you have good internet, having the pole plan schedule behind you or hard hats and all this stuff, all the gear of where you work is pretty cool.
You just want to make sure that you can hear and you can be heard and all of that stuff.
But otherwise, it really kind of adds to showing your company culture, cleanliness, your personality, all of those things with just kind of a glance.
yes.
And knowing where the mute button is and the unmute button.
Right.
Yeah.
I think we've gotten pretty good at realizing we all need to be muted unless you are presenting.
That just helps cut down all that background noise and try to be pretty aware the space bar is your friend to unmute.
So you can quickly kind of get in there and start talking and then mute again.
When you're in interview mode, it is different than just regular meeting.
It is nice if we can avoid the oh, sorry, you're you're muted, you know, and that kind of little hiccup in the interview.
Okay, Melissa, we hit on the technical and the physical components of virtual interviews pretty well.
Let's get into the third item, which was emotional.
Yeah, the emotional is a piece that is key to any interview, whether you're in person or virtual, and it's about being connected to the client and the project.
What do they care about?
What does your team care about?
What do you personally care about?
Why did you want to go after this project?
Why is it important to you?
Hopefully, it could be something really engaging, like this is the school I went to, and this is the school my kids are gonna go to, so I wanna make it better for the future generation.
But finding something that's compelling, other than we just wanna work with you, we wanna do this project, but finding a compelling reason to connect with the client is that emotional piece.
Yeah, everyone should have a good answer in their back pocket, too.
Well, why should we select you?
What differentiates you from the competition?
Those kinds of things, because if you work on it, you'll get away from just the really easy answers that don't mean a lot, and get to the heart of why you actually wanna be there.
sometimes when people haven't thought that through, everyone on the team is introducing themselves and saying they're excited about the project, and that doesn't sound very genuine.
So you want it to be something that's genuine to you, to the project.
So maybe everyone doesn't have a real connection, so hopefully at least a couple of people have a real connection to the project that they can speak about in their intro and in the wrap-up, but that emotional piece can't be understated in connecting with the client.
Yeah, and for good reason, right?
The more committed you are to the project and the process, and if you have a vested interest because maybe that's in your neighborhood or you went to that school or you want to see this as a community asset.
I mean, for so many different reasons, if you can find the real reason why you're driven, that'll come across and that makes it a lot easier for that selection panel to know and confirm like, yes, this is our team.
Maybe the virtual format gives you some little more low key ways to put that emotional connection in there.
I recently saw an interview where it was for a middle school and there was going to be a lot of engagement with the students and everyone sat and reflected on what an awkward time middle school is.
And so to acknowledge that, they in their intro on their team org chart, they had all used photos of themselves from middle school.
So it added some levity to the interview and got everyone laughing a little bit.
And it was a nice way to kind of acknowledge that we care about this project.
We understand what an important time middle school is, how awkward of a time it can be.
So looking for those ways to make that connection in different ways, given your format of a virtual interview.
Do you feel like this qualifies as an emotional connection?
You know, when I've heard team members share their expertise about how they would make a project better.
So, for example, they're talking to the facilities maintenance group about how they'll work with them to make sure the spaces are things that they can easily access and that it will be really safe.
And they won't have to get on these ladders or change these light bulbs that are, you know, 100 feet up or something wild like that.
You're talking about your expertise and you're talking directly to the client about what matters to them.
Now, I probably said it really in a dry way there, but I think in the interview that can come across as being genuinely interested in what's going to make their life better and that you can bring to the project.
You think that checks the box of making an emotional connection?
Yeah, even if it's more that, you know, this example may is like a K-12 schools, that you're passionate about K-12 schools.
And because we've done so many schools, we know that maintenance doesn't like doing this, or they like prefer this, or even showing that some school districts, they want all lawn because they have lawnmowers or the easiest equipment they have to get around.
This school doesn't want any lawn because they don't have enough staff to mow the lawn.
So even just acknowledging that you know there's some preferences and what's your school district's preference I think is an emotional connection because that's the panel you're talking to.
This is the emotional aspects of their life on a day-to-day workday.
Do I have to get up on that ladder?
Do I have to get the lawnmower out?
In your interview prep and then somehow during your interview asking that question to the client, what's keeping you up at night or what matters most to you?
And if you have a panel of five or eight or whoever, you may have eight different answers, but that's eight different ways to understand what really matters to them.
And some of those are going to be a more sensitive topic than others, right?
Yeah.
I mean, listening and being creative about how you address what their true concerns are.
Yeah.
And then that kind of ties back to that physical of active listening, making notes of those things, maybe not right in that moment is the time you can bring that back around, but maybe later in the Q&A or in the wrap-up, you're going to have that opportunity to hit on that one thing that one panelist said that is going to make them remember your team, that you were listening to them and that you heard what they said.
Right.
And a follow-up e-mail.
I hope your executives, the pursuit leader is sending a thank you note after the interview, to kind of close the loop on that.
And maybe there were some items that came up as follow-up or action items that your team said that they would provide.
And if you're able to mention a few of the items that you really stood out and why your team would be a great fit, that's another way to continue that emotional line beyond the interview.
Yeah.
Speaking of wrap-ups in interviews, what are you seeing happening with Leave Behinds given the virtual format?
I mean, I think they're really valuable.
And because they're probably digital in the virtual format, there's even more that you can do.
Definitely think we're beyond the days of just printing the PowerPoint.
And even binding it or stapling or something and calling that a leave behind, right?
That's not, I mean, that's fine.
There can be a time and a place for that.
Yeah.
I think that again, depends on the format and the formality of the interview.
And you want to be thinking through what's going to add value.
We don't want it to be distracting, right?
We don't want to put something up or share something that the interview panel is looking at instead of your team.
But it can be a great way to summarize the why statements.
It can be to build on or add more information that you only got to show briefly during the interview and give them something to think about.
Definitely a great way to stay in their minds after you're done presenting for your 45 minutes or so.
yes.
I hope we're past leaving the slide deck as a leave behind and having something that's a nice wrap up or that gives them something to remember your team.
Because of the virtual format, your leave behinds could be links or more interactive components.
If you weren't able to share that website for the project during the meeting, maybe there's a level of detail that the interview panel can dig into later.
And so that's an option.
That's a great comment.
If you're integrating, maybe you're managing a specific web page for the project on behalf of your client or giving them content for their social media, it's pretty easy to just drop in the links in the chat or hyperlinked PDFs to those types of content that they can go visit.
Okay, well, we like to hit on a listener question, and this week we have better than a listener question.
We have a question that came up when Melissa and I were presenting at a conference, we were talking about interviews, and gosh, it was so hilarious, we thought we needed to bring it to the podcast.
So the question is, or whatever, however you say this, a panelist fell asleep during our interview.
What should we do?
Yeah, I think both of our jaws dropped.
I certainly heard stories of folks multitasking, but alright, falling asleep, I mean, it's pretty rough.
This was such a good stumper for me.
It was like, I couldn't even believe it, honestly.
I was like, wait a second.
So bravo to putting that question out there.
But yeah, what should you do?
Yeah, I think it's a fine line.
I mean, if you're literally only speaking to one person, then I think you have to say something.
But yeah, I mean, I think it stumped us, and I think that's why we brought it to this, and it's probably not a great answer that I'm giving right now.
Yeah, it depends on kind of the makeup of the team, right?
If it's two on two having a conversation, and a quarter of the group is not there, or half of the decision makers, it might be worth just putting a question out there too, generally like, is this still a good time?
Do we want to reschedule?
Is there a better time?
I've been in very important meetings, where people had big, stressful things happen, and you can tell that there's a major distraction, right?
And so just kind of reading the room and suggesting like, we can continue this conversation another time or just being really open to that.
That could be one strategy.
If it's one person that's asleep in a panel of 10, I think you just ignore it, honestly.
It's too bad, and hopefully, it's not someone who is like the number one decision maker on the team.
But I don't feel like it's probably very comfortable or appropriate or I don't know, it's going to not come across the right way to call them out.
I mean, what do you do?
You can't nudge them because we're virtual.
I think you just have to go with it.
Right, exactly.
And if you're planning to try and work for this client again or you do get the project, you don't want to have that awkward thing where you made them embarrassed because bring up a good point.
You don't ever know what anyone's got going on in their life.
So why they were doing that, but I guess there's the reason why you would want people to have their camera off.
You wouldn't know they were sleeping.
Right.
Yeah, assume good intentions.
We're just going to say, well, they were probably up all night with a brand new baby, and this is the best that they could do.
So we're going to give them some support and keep going through it.
But yeah, I had never heard that before.
I hope it doesn't happen to you out there because that's disappointing when you put a lot of work into preparing your team presenting and just, again, maybe realizing that we're all human.
So it's okay to have a conversation, to pause, be kind in any case, right?
Whatever the situation might be, guiding the conversation so that you can be really productive.
That's the best we can recommend.
And just fingers crossed it doesn't really happen.
Yep, I know.
I think one of our lessons learned or one of our hot tips was to let go of the need to be perfect.
So I guess we should allow that same grace to our panelists that are interviewing us, that they're not going to be perfect either.
Yeah.
Well, awesome.
Hey, send us your listener questions because we love to dig into them and think through it.
And we're happy to share those.
And I think everyone can learn a lot from what we all collectively are thinking about and wonder.
So please send those our way to the shortlist at middleofsix.com.
And Melissa, I think that that puts a nice bow on virtual interviews.
Thank you for being here virtually.
And we'll see you on the next one.
Thanks, Wendy.
The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six and hosted by me, Wendy Simmons, principal marketing strategist.
Kyle Davis is our producer with Graphic design and Digital Marketing by Alison Rose.
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Until next time, keep on hustling.
Bye.
Talk to you later.
The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.