
In every shortlist interview, there are several essential characters that need to be present. Each team member—whether they serve as the Opener, Closer, Director, Time and Money Guru, Segue Artist, or Teaming and Diversity Expert—plays an important role in bringing home the win. Once you've decided who will be wearing which hats, how do you curb distracting personality traits such as the Joker, Analytic, and Outlaw? Join Wendy Simmons and Allison Tivnon as they commiserate (ahem, discuss) the roles and quirks of your interview team to facilitate a comfortable and confident outcome.
CPSM CEU Credits: 0.5 | Domain: 4
Podcast Transcript
Welcome to The Shortlist.
We are exploring all things AEC marketing to help your firm win The Shortlist.
I'm your host, Wendy Simmons, and each episode, I'll be joined by one of my team members from Middle of Six to answer your questions.
Today, we're chatting with Allison Tivnon.
Hey, Allison.
Hey there, Wendy.
So Allison, we have been doing a lot of interview coaching lately, and actually, I've personally been working with a couple firms on some interview training.
And when you suggested that we talk about the different personalities and the people that you bring to an interview, to me, this just sparked a lot of interest.
I feel like our listeners will love to hear your perspective on who you bring to the interview, what their roles are, and some of their kind of distracting, potentially distracting personality behaviors that they bring to the interview and how you can help coach your team to minimize those.
Yeah, I think that this is a topic that doesn't get enough love.
We talk a lot about power points for interviews.
We spend a ton of time talking about the proposal stage.
And I think it's mostly crickets.
And a lot of people probably feel that when you get the notice of shortlist seems like everyone has scattered.
They're all focused on other things.
They don't have this front and center anymore.
And I think a lot of people have just expelled all of their mental and emotional energy on the proposal.
And there's not a whole lot of gas left in the tank when you get to the shortlist.
I think also when you're in the proposal stage, you have very strong personalities that are commanding a lot of bandwidth in terms of ideas and creativity, direction for the narratives and writing the value propositions.
And a lot of those personalities don't quite translate over into the interview stage in the same ways in terms of enthusiasm and energy level.
And I think the reason why is because when you get to interview, it becomes much more about you, and you have to be front and center, and that can bring out a lot of insecurities in people.
That's what I was hoping we could talk about today, so that you can address these types of insecurities head on and maybe make people feel a little more confident in the process.
Oh, yeah.
Let's not forget that some folks who are going to be asked to interview probably didn't participate in the proposal development at all.
And while that's not exactly a best practice, it's actually the reality of it, whether someone might be really busy on their current project or out for vacation.
There's lots of reasons why they may not have a heavy hand in the qualifications and RFP response, but they may be very, very important in the interview.
And so getting them up to speed and feeling comfortable with their role and speaking to that is going to be part of the magic of winning ultimately.
Yeah.
And you see a lot in terms of we need to have the president in the room for this one or some real top tier executive at the firm.
And maybe you did list them in the org chart, their bios in there, they haven't read the proposal.
They might not have even been that aware of it.
And now they're getting pulled in to prep for something that they don't have a whole lot of good understanding of.
This is also true of of different key players that are listed on the org chart really high up, that are going to play a real pivotal role.
But they just haven't been brought along through the entire proposal coordination and pulling together all of the materials and working through what that understanding is, what the approach is.
They're kind of coming in to a blind.
And if you don't start pulling them in and making them a meaningful part of the prep, it's going to come out when you're in the interview room itself or on the screen, that lack of preparation does come across.
Yeah, so you're right.
There are a lot of people that need to contribute for a successful interview.
And some of them are going to be really steeped in all of the strategy and the client and the project knowledge.
And others may be a support role, like your VDC BIM folks or someone in pre-con that is going to come in and needs to get up to speed.
So let's talk about when you do get shortlisted to the interview, how you decide who to bring and then also what those roles are and how they bring value in that conversation.
Well, I think it all starts with thinking through who's going to be on the other side of the table and what do they have in their head when they're coming into the room.
You're going to have people on both sides of the table that have very differing motivations for why they're there, but very intertwined and similar at the same time.
Everybody who goes into that room has some sort of stake in the game.
You've got people on the selection committee side that have been working really, really hard to get the funding for this project that had to pull that RFP together, that have had to read through so many proposals on it.
They're tired and they want to see energy from the team that's coming into the room.
And they also want to see that team be able to respond to all sorts of facets of the project.
And so when you're thinking through who has to be in that room, I think you have to have a leader, you have to have someone who's going to talk to the schedule, who's going to talk to the money, you have to have the technical voice in the room that can really dig in to details and be able to just jump on questions at the end when you're in the Q&A.
You also need to have a really high level of emotional intelligence.
So having someone in the room that can speak to your culture, that can speak to your diversity and inclusion approaches and goals, both overall for your firm, but also for this project.
And you also have to have someone who's going to guide your team through the interview.
You have to rehearse in advance.
You should rehearse several times in advance, but things will sometimes go sideways in interview.
You'll get a wrench thrown into things tech-wise, or the selection committee themselves will throw you a curveball that you didn't expect.
And you have to have a leader on your team who's going to be able to toss the baton to different people to answer questions instead of having dead errors.
because everyone's trying to figure out who's going to answer that.
You need to have someone who's going to make the decision for the team on what direction you're going to carry that ball.
So looking at if the client has given you a specific outline of who they'd like to see, and then you compare that to who on your team either officially plays that role or can fit into that role.
Wouldn't you agree, Allison, in that kind of list that you gave right there, sometimes people may play the role of the leader, but also have that kind of the empathy piece.
You know, they may be like multiple hats on one person.
It doesn't mean that it's, you know, nine individuals necessarily at an interview.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you can be the opener and the closer and also the person that is a specialist in one of the areas.
You can be the person that is in the room to talk about schedule or budget and also be the person that's going to be talking about your DEI plan.
You just have to make sure that you're covering all of these very important areas because any one of them could come up.
That's a great high level overview of the different roles.
Do you want to take a deeper dive into the six different characters that you say are really essential for a successful interview?
I think it starts with the fact that regardless of what the project is, what part of the AEC industry you're from, you have six typical types of people that have to be in there.
Let's start with the opener and the closer.
This is the person that sets the stage.
They frame the issues and the team.
They're speaking to the culture and the values of your firm.
And they're overall setting the tone.
It's enthusiastic and everyone's excited to be there.
They're very gracious in their approach.
That's how they're opening it up.
They're also going to be there on the back end to help close things up and bring it to a nice resolution.
And again, being very gracious on the way out of the interview.
Then you have what I call the director.
This is the person that's going to handle the hard questions.
They are going to demonstrate unity within the team.
They'll call team members out by name.
They're going to complement their answers.
And they're going to work to connect with the client.
They're going to make the client want to work with this team.
They're going to demonstrate the depth of understanding that the project team has.
And they are also going to be the one that if there is an unanticipated question, they'll take the lead in answering it or they're going to suggest someone on your team who can take it on.
And then of course you have time and money.
You have to have someone who's going to be able to speak to that.
This person knows the schedule and the budget inside and out.
They can defend the decision making process that went into creating it.
And maybe most importantly, they're going to be able to listen very carefully for cues from the clients and respond with emphasis on fiscal responsibility and how to use resources efficiently.
And then you have the segue artist.
This is someone who is going to be keeping their eye on the clock.
They have been in rehearsals.
They know the scripts that everyone has been adhering to.
Things can kind of go in the weeds really quickly when you're actually in the moment.
They're going to be tasked with advancing the PowerPoint deck if multiple people have speaking roles.
And, you know, use subtle signals to your team members, whether you're in person or virtually, that you're kind of heading into the weeds or going over time during Q&A.
So really, they're the ones that keep the wheels from falling off the whole thing.
And then you have the specialists.
Specialists are the ones that come in that are speaking specifically to a highly technical complex tool or skill, some sort of hot button topic that you know the client is really interested in.
They speak clearly and confidently about the topic and they're using language that the committee is going to understand.
Lastly, but absolutely not least, you have the teaming and diversity expert.
This is someone who's going to speak directly to the company's outreach methods.
They're going to talk about the firm culture and values and hiring practices, subcontracting practices as they're related to diversity, equity and inclusion.
This is something that is prevalent across our entire industry.
In every city, in every state, across the country, every single firm has to be able to demonstrate that they are making progress towards diversifying our industry.
You need to have someone in your room in every interview who's going to be able to speak intelligently to that and with a high level of emotional intelligence.
And they also have to be able to quote direct experience and examples of excellence in creating those opportunities and rooms for disadvantaged firms, disadvantaged individuals and so coming in there with some success stories.
Yeah, absolutely.
Those are the six characters that you want to make sure you're having in the room, so to speak.
It can actually all be one person if you have to just have one person attending the interview.
They have to know that they're going to be speaking to all of these different parts.
They're going to have to keep themselves on the clock and making sure that they don't go off into the weeds.
It is possible.
It's a lot harder with one, but again, it can be a lot harder with all six of them in the room because they got to make sure they're all showing up to the rehearsals.
That was a really great overview of the six different roles and personalities that need to be in an interview.
I like how you acknowledge that people wear multiple hats.
We will definitely reference those names, the roles, the titles like Director and the Specialist as we talk about interviews specifically.
Do you mind if I just throw out a couple scenarios or common things that we run into?
We could kind of talk through how that works.
So what happens when the client asks you to essentially, hey, bring the Director and the Specialist, and we don't want anyone from the C-suite here.
Thank you very much.
What do you do when you get that kind of very specific feedback on who they want to see?
I think you pivot and lean into it.
We have really wonderful leaders within our firms that either feel like they're the face of the company or truly are.
You know, their name might even be in the name of the company.
And I think our need your reaction is we want them in the room because they're so good at articulating what makes the firm special.
But it can't all fall to one individual or the C-suite of folks coming in that have that holistic, super well-rounded view of the firm and be able to speak to it.
You have to get everyone who could possibly play a role in interviews to be able to have some kind of understanding at a basic level of how do you sell your firm.
And sometimes it's better just to have the project manager in there.
They're going to be able to look across the room, or at someone's face on a screen, and be able to see the person that that's the guy or that's the woman, that's the person that I'm going to be working with if we get this.
Yeah.
And you want to connect the people that are actually going to be doing the job with the people on the other side of the room that are going to be depending on them doing it well.
Right.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's kind of the secret thing that an interview is all about, is connecting the folks who are going to be doing the work with the project partners on the other side.
And I don't see it much anymore where teams are just trying to win work with the CEO coming in there.
Those, I guess, if that's going to be how it goes, it's a totally different type of interview or selection process, right?
Not our typical thing where we're doing a competitive process and standing up and interviewing in front of people.
So Wendy, there's actually a seventh character that we should probably talk about.
Though, anecdotally, I've heard some pushback from selection committee members who don't want this person in the room, and that is the marketing and business development professional.
It's just like they say, don't include marketing materials or the flashy collateral with your proposals.
So I don't know if you've ever experienced that where people are trying to pull you into the actual interview or what are your thoughts on that?
Yes, I take offense to that.
First of all, the marketing collateral is not fluff.
Thank you, folks.
It's great and informative and it's a good selling piece.
But Allison, I have had a little bit of a different experience than you, and so we should talk about this a bit more.
I have had good success asking early in the pursuit process if someone from the marketing team could join the interview.
And usually, our clients are asking this in the way that, hey, we have a team member that we would love to give us some feedback on, you know, how we're doing and just so that we can improve our process and so that we can be better at this.
Are you okay with us bringing that person?
And then I think when you're either well positioned or at least in the process of being positioned, you can understand if that's a question you can even ask.
If you can't ask a question like that, it's like, that's a little bit of a red flag to me.
But if you, if they say honestly, you don't know, we really want it to just be these four folks, that's it, thank you for asking, then you can respect that.
But more than 50% of the time, I think we hear, I have heard feedback that says, sure, that sounds great.
I love the idea that you're bringing an intern to this interview so they can see you in action.
I mean, sometimes it's actually turns into a positive thing.
So that has been my experience.
And I've also as a consultant, believe it or not, been to several interviews with our clients.
And again, we use that process of asking really early.
We're not throwing it out at the owner or something at the last minute.
It's just part of our kind of early preparation for it so that we understand what we can do and can't do.
And then I've come and attended and I might be part of the team actually as part of the team, or I may just be camera off on the side taking some notes so I can help improve coaching for the next time.
So that's been my experience.
But Allison, tell me more about what you've heard, more of the, no, we don't want anyone that's not the technical staff who's building it.
You said something there really before I answered that.
I was like, yes, absolutely.
Is the idea of bringing an intern into the room or a student or someone who's a part of some kind of program that your company has founded to help pull people up and into the profession.
That is meaningful.
And I think it speaks volumes to your company culture and the way that you're doing your part for the industry.
I think what they are trying to tell us when they're saying, don't bring marketing into the room, is that marketing has done such a good job in the proposal of selling them on the overall firm.
And the quolls to get them into that room, they're like, okay, now we need to talk to the people.
So we laid out the org charts, we put those resumes in there, we put in the bios, we put in the testimonials and made it all look beautiful around the approach and understanding and the schedule and the budget and all of that.
Now they have to do the heavy lifting of talking and actually articulating what we put down on paper in a way that's going to dig into the details and make it more about the people because people win the projects.
The proposal gets you into the room, but the people that are in the room are the ones that are going to instill the trust that is going to give you just a few more points than the other person who's interviewing before or after you.
Yeah, and I could definitely see, and I have experienced some circumstances where maybe a team wants to bring their business development leader.
You know, this is not a dig on those BD folks.
They are usually so good and so great with relationships and so knowledgeable about the projects and the people that they, the rest of the team will want to lean on them.
You answer those questions.
And again, I don't typically see marketing having a big speaking role if they would go to the interview, if any, like maybe an introduction.
But, you know, they're not doing more than that and playing some support.
But when you bring in BD folks, because maybe they had experience being on project teams before, and they are a little bit more hands-on, there is an easy tendency to let them do a lot of the talking because they're so good at it.
And so that's, I think, maybe where we would get a little bit of that pushback that, no, we really, really want to talk to the project manager or the superintendent or, you know, the folks who are going to be managing the day to day.
Yeah, well, there's one other thing.
You bring that person in because your technical staff don't have that muscle built up to do that kind of selling in the room.
They're great at talking about the technical, but they get really intimidated at the idea of telling the story.
And one of the fun exercises at one of my former jobs was we had offices on the 16th floor and I timed how long it took from the lobby to the floor we were on, how long it took to get there.
And then put forth this competition amongst all our staff, said, okay, you have a minute and 16 seconds to give us your pitch.
Say, you're always talking about the elevator pitch.
How do you describe what we do?
How do you describe what you do?
Tell me about this project.
And so we would use that one minute, and I think it was one minute, 16 seconds on average.
Before the door's open, you have to get out the door.
And it was pretty cool what happened from that.
People got really, really dialed in at realizing they can't tell everything all at once.
They have to pick and choose, but get to the marrow of what you're talking about.
And we bring in the business development folks because they are really good at doing that.
But we have to build up that skill in the rest of the team.
And we also have to kind of tamp down on some of the, I guess it would be the by-product of insecurity that can bring out the worst in your personality.
And let's face it, a lot of people are very, very insecure about interviewing.
They get stage fright.
They feel like they're gonna mess up, so they have avoidance behavior.
And if you can get them into a place where they at least have some of the stuff in the back of their heads, I know how to talk about this company.
I know how to sell our culture.
You're gonna put them in a much better place to be able to speak to everything else, but you're also gonna make it so that you don't have to have the business development person in the room.
Mm-hmm.
As that safety net, which is so great to have.
But that beady person, or if the president of the company is not invited to the interview, they can still support and help coach along the way.
So keep that in mind.
They have a lot of value to add, and they don't have to be an intimidating factor, but they could really help your team prepare properly as you're getting ready.
Hi, Allison, you alluded to that these different roles and different people may have some different personality traits that they bring to the interview.
Do you want to dig into that a little bit deeper?
Yes, and this is one of my favorite subjects to talk about.
And I think it's because all of us can relate to probably every one of these types of what I call distracting personality traits.
And a lot of it is because we're so in our own head that we are not socially aware of how we're coming across.
And so I'm going to list them out and just give a little bit of a description for each of them.
But the first one that comes to mind is the dominator.
And this one, the director can often accidentally fall into this kind of behavior, but it's a tendency to yank the wheel.
You get so into the moment that you're not even aware that you're talking over other people, interrupting or hijacking questions.
Someone who feels really comfortable in an interview is going to easily be the dominator because they just are ready to talk and tell a story and jump in.
Yeah, and honestly, I am a dominator a lot of the time because I get so excited about the topic and I have so many thoughts whirling around in my head that I want to say all of them all at once.
Wendy, you know that.
Well, I am right there with you, Allison.
Well, and then, you know, the next one is the Joker.
This is the person that kind of takes it upon themselves to lighten the mood.
They're goofy, mainly because they're masking their own nervousness.
They think they're loosening up the conversation, but oh gosh, it's cringe worthy when those attempts fall flat.
And I think all of us have kind of had that happen to us too.
Or you know someone who really just goes into that kind of personality when they're really, really unprepared.
Yeah, and on the Joker, I mean, I like having a little bit of humor in the interview.
When done right, it does kind of set the stage for a more relaxing, casual conversation.
But yes, Allison, to your point, it can't be cringey.
And some folks are guilty of saying the same old kind of bad jokes in every interview.
The rest of your team is kind of tired of hearing it.
So be aware of that and just try to be more genuine and lighthearted.
Yeah, and sometimes talk about cringeworthy.
You'll hear people that actually make a joke at someone else's expense that's in the room.
You know, whether it's something that they're wearing or their hair or their background or they just they put someone on the spot and it's almost this like razzle behavior.
It got to knock that off.
You can't do that.
Everyone is going to have some degree of frayed nerves when they're going in.
You got to be really supportive of each other and just avoid that tendency if that is something that you tend to notice in your own behavior.
The next one and this is we tend to see the specialists really fall into this trap and it can really derail an interview is the analytic.
This is the person that loves talking details.
They can get so swept up in a concept that they start to forget what the question was that was asked to them and they go way off into the weeds.
The real risk here is that it can cause the selection committee completely tune out what they're saying and it can also be really, really hard for the segue artist to figure out, how am I going to get this back on track?
Yeah, your engineering folks will often fit into this bucket.
And when we're coaching someone who's really technical in that way, what we're reminding them is to not get too deep into the weeds and know your audience.
Are they really technical and want to go up to that level?
Or is it a non-technical audience and we need to keep things high and simple so that they actually get what you're saying as opposed to getting lost?
Yeah, and there's so much about what we do that is technical.
And there's going to be at least one person on the selection committee that's going to get the jargon that they're riffing on and might really be into it.
But you're on the clock.
You got to keep things tight.
So watch out for the analytic.
And for those of you that find that you do have a tendency to do that, just be aware of it going in.
There's another personality that to me really speaks to someone who did not prep and was not ready to go into the interview with any sense of what their role was going to be in it.
And that's the echo chamber.
As someone who is just agreeing and nodding their way through the interview, they don't really have any substantive lines.
And either it's because they didn't rehearse, because they weren't given a real role, or because they're just super nervous and uncertain.
They fall back on simply reiterating other people's responses.
So they'll say things like, yes, and to that point.
And then they say the exact same thing that someone else just said while nodding their head like, yes, that was a really good point.
They don't add anything to the interview and they're burning through a lot of really important minutes that you have.
Uh-huh.
Exactly.
That's a great point.
I totally agree with you.
I see what you did there.
Okay.
Okay.
The next one here on your list, Allison, is The Outlaw.
Tell me, tell me more.
Oh, gosh.
I have worked with so many outlaws.
This is the person who didn't show up to any of the rehearsals.
They tend to be extremely sure of themselves, sometimes overconfident.
They have no problems with self-esteem.
They think that they can go into an interview without any prep at all, or they are so overwhelmed with other things.
They're terrible at time management.
Whatever the reasons are, they come in and they have no idea what's going on.
And so they go off-roading and they destroy the script.
They talk over the PowerPoint slides.
Wait, wait, we have a plan here.
They're like, no, I'm taking over.
Yeah, it's a classic sign.
They've missed the check-ins and the rehearsal meetings.
They didn't come prepared, so they're just making it up as they go along.
If you've ever heard, here's the classic example.
If you've ever heard an executive say, yeah, I don't need to practice my clothes.
I've got it in my head.
I'll do it.
I'm better in person.
That might be your outlaw.
Yeah, you know, I don't like rehearsing.
I feel like it kind of gets a little canned and it's not as spontaneous as it should be.
It's like, oh no, oh no.
If you hear someone saying that, they are going to crack under the pressure in the interview and it's not going to sound as good as they really think that it's going to.
And if you are lucky enough to have your marketing team in the interview, then they get to hear it firsthand and can provide real feedback.
Yeah.
All right.
Last but not least is the zinger.
This is the person that openly disagrees with their team members or questions or response.
They talk in a super brash way about the project or the schedule, they're super cavalier about the competition.
Very flippant.
And this type of behavior can cause a lot of collective heartburn for their teammates.
Sometimes you'll see this in a specialist, someone who doesn't typically interact with people very often, and they like being in the numbers or down into the data or the day-to-day technical work.
But whatever the reason for it, this is a perfect opportunity to pull someone aside and coach them in how to spin things in a positive way, to build the team up and be really unified and demonstrating that to the client.
I don't know, Wendy, have you ever experienced this with teams that you've been coaching?
You know, I have in a couple of different ways and for different reasons, too.
One place I've seen this is when someone is not as excited about the project, usually because it's sort of far away from home or they're just feeling like, I don't know if this is what I want to win.
And so even if they're not really thinking about it, it kind of seeps into some of the way they describe their role or their experience.
The enthusiasm isn't quite there.
And other ways, it's just that someone isn't as connected with the team, and so they are kind of thinking about their role only, but just not showing that chemistry.
And so there's a little bit of a rub there.
Yeah.
And one other thing about Zingers is that we're in a totally different world right now, with the pandemic, with all sorts of conversations happening around social justice and equity.
And we have to be really context sensitive.
And that's another area where a Zinger can really throw things for a loop, is if you have a project that's in a really urban environment and there's a lot of sensitivities, like unsheltered people living around the site.
Or it's you're talking about trying to really increase the level of minority owned, women owned or disadvantaged business participation.
And you have someone in the room that's flippant about any one of these things, or it's just not sensitive to the political context of projects.
That can kill your chances of getting a project.
So you have to also make sure that your team is very aware of the surrounding ecosystem in which these projects are taking place and brings that into the room or just make sure that they're very careful in how they talk about it.
I totally agree.
And I've seen all of these personality traits.
I just want to throw out one more for discussion that comes up a lot is the conservative.
The person who is not willing to really make a clear proclamation of what the approach should be or what their recommendation would be on a system or how they're going to build something.
I understand where this comes from because you don't want to say something when you don't have 100 percent of the information to really be advising.
And when you're in an interview stage, you're at the very awkward point of knowing a lot, but definitely not enough, right?
The project has way far to go before you can confidently answer those.
So it may be an engineer, it may be a superintendent.
That's where I see it a lot, where they're like, we don't know.
There's so many variables and they want to be really hesitant.
And I find that overly conservative in the recommendation.
And how it comes across when you're on the interview panel side is that, hmm, they didn't really tell us, I don't have a good sense of how they're going to do this, or how they're going to share their expertise.
I don't know, I'm the developer.
I don't know, I need someone who can guide me and provide that information.
So be careful for the folks who just tend to be conservative in their recommendations, because that usually doesn't equate to a winning interview.
Mm-hmm, yeah, indecisiveness will linger in the room after you've left it.
I love all of these, Allison, and I'm so tempted to just dig into now what are the positive traits that we want to see, but we will not do that right this minute.
We will wrap up here for today and leave people with some things to think about with their own teams, those different traits and the six roles we talked about for a successful interview.
And then we'll get back together another time and talk about all the great positive qualities your team can bring to an interview.
Until then, thank you so much and keep on hustling.
Thanks, Wendy.
See you next time.
The Shortlist is presented by Middle of Six and hosted by me, Wendy Simmons, principal marketing strategist.
Kyle Davis is our producer with Graphic Design and Digital Marketing by Allison Rose.
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Until next time, keep on hustling.
Bye.
See you later.
The Shortlist is a podcast that explores all things AEC marketing. Hosted by Middle of Six Principal, Wendy Simmons, each episode features members of the MOS team, where we take a deep dive on a wide range of topics related to AEC marketing including: proposal development, strategy, team building, business development, branding, digital marketing, and more. You can listen to our full archive of episodes here.